You are viewing youcallitwinter

 
 
21 November 2013 @ 04:05 am
The K-Drama Meta.  
I HAVE EXAMS ON IN A FEW, WOULD YOU BELIEVE. PRAYER CIRCLE FOR MY CONTINUED ACADEMIC EXISTENCE. And in the meanwhile, I don't even believe this myself.

Female (Second) Leads: Narratives vs. Tropes:
[In Defence Of] Coffee House.


When do I suggest reading this:

- If you're not planning on watching Coffee House , because you should. I think it's best to go into it blind tbh.
- You're planning on watching Coffee House and you don't like kdrama tropes being messed around with (because that way it's better to know.)
- Never. It's 4700 words of drama fanwank which includes everything from Boys Over Flowers to The Heirs, why would you even.

xx

So here is a post about something that no one will care about except me (I'm not even sure anyone I know has seen it, BUT IT'S MY JOURNAL, I'LL POST IF I WANT TO ETC.), but I have exams in a week and I need to be freaking done with this line of thought because I am obsessing over it and I am an obsessively obsessive person who can't function otherwise.

So. I watched Coffee House and I fucking loved it. Let me reiterate that; loved it. It is well written, fantastically acted for the most part, genuinely funny, gorgeously angsty in the right moments and it has, what I've decided is one of my favorite female characters of all times. Not that it doesn't have many faults, because it does. So, the bottom line is: yeah, I personally adored it. And then I went on the internetz and it turns out that lots of people disliked it? (Although,tbf,  I think a significant more portion of people watching liked/looooooved it, but if you check out a random site about the show, a majority of the people will be like "wtf?") At first, I was legit flabbergasted, how could there possibly be a person who doesn't like the show? Or specifically, how could there be a person who doesn't like the show for the reasons that they've cited? aka my favorite parts were the ones that did not appeal to them, which made me O______o

But post-comment-reading, I was basically: of course they didn't like it.

See, Coffee House does something unexpected for a kdrama romantic comedy; it does something different. And then it does something mean; it does something different without telling the audience it is doing something different.

The thing about us, as kdrama rom-com viewers is, that we've by-and-large come to understand the formula and, regardless of whether we want to or not, that formula affects the way we perceive the show. When you're watching The Heirs you know that Kim Tan is going to Get The Girl. So the analysis of his character and the self-awareness of the narrative re: the potential of his character to be an abusive, manipulative asshole, is going to be judged with regards to that. Which, hilariously enough, leaves us free to ship all the ships that are more openly problematic, coughYoungDoEunSangcough, but automatically become less problematic, because you already know they're not endgame. The judgment of romanticizing of the problematics doesn't lie so heavy with them, because you're free to read it as the text not portraying it as romantic at all.

This is the general case with all second male lead/female lead dynamics, since the female is largely unaffected by the interest/advances of the second lead and practically unwavering in her love/loyalty to the male lead. (Which, to be honest, as a part of an Asian culture myself, I understand. When the entire narrative of the OTP is about love and all the insane odds they have to fight, you also need to convince the audience that that love is worth fighting for, which would be undermined if there were equally eligible candidates for the heroine's affections around, who she could get together with without the drama.) This, for obvious reasons, is harder to do with an OTP, especially when you add to it the fact that they're talking about love in (mostly) absolute terms. As in, getting together is a Happily Ever After and mostly happens when you're resolved all the conflicts and there isn't (much) space for dissent on whether the OTP itself is portrayed as a wrong!ship even post the end, unless that's what the text is about (in a makjang for instance).

The point being, that your judgment of a dynamic or a character or a relationship is largely built around what you've already guessed from the application of the general formula in the text. You might get a deviation, as in Coffee Prince, where the female second lead never fell for the male lead at all and it had been entirely unrequited beginning to end, even though everyone had assumed that she was flirting with him because that's what Female Second Leads do, but that deviation isn't by itself strong enough to actually make a difference to the opinion of the people. Or you may get a drama like Dream High (which I haven't seen, but will, I swear, Lizzie!) which also changes your idea of the OTP, but usually in kdramas, the male second leads are fairly well-developed and though you know that it's never going to be realized, the potential for the female lead going for the male second lead always exists because their characterization is such. It's never realized mostly only because that's how kdramas work and the female lead will almost never be interested, not because the narrative doesn't allow for the possibility at all. Male Second Leads are paragons of virtue, wealth, endless patience and niceness. Female Second Leads are largely bitchy, ironically self-aware, largely selfish, given to going to great lengths to break up the OTP (although, all this, when it's not caricatured as in the case of In-hee in Personal Taste, who was kind of unbelievably awful really, very interestingly leads to some of the best female characterizations of a drama). And while you might get some very different characterizations as well, like Hee-jin in My Name Is Kim Sam Soon, or these characters may become more relatable as Hye-won in Full House or Jae-kyung in Boys Over Flowers or even Hae-ra in Playful Kiss, you're always aware that, unlike perhaps the Male Second Lead re: Female Lead, they never really had a shot in hell at the Male Lead.

And then a show like Coffee House comes along and throws a wench in this stable dynamic.

I think Coffee House made me realize something fundamental about my kdrama viewing (which I was telling Alex, and she has no idea what I'm talking about because I brought it up cryptically, as it is with us in general, lmao): I have a tendency to read kdramas not according to narrative, but rather according to tropes. It's not that I can't read the narrative, it's just that I don't trust it because of my pre-set expectations from the text.

And it also made me realize something else; this is a development that happened post lots-of-kdrama viewage, not something that existed beforehand.

Boys Over Flowers is one of those shows that is almost universally hated and universally loved. Like, everyone agrees it's awful and everyone agrees that everyone else must watch it. It was also the third kdrama I ever saw (and one of the others aka Reply 1997 taught me nothing about kdramas-in-general because it was so ridiculously unique and not-cliche), so I wasn't already familiar with a lot of tropes that BOF would teach me. But, it's only now that I've realized that my dislike of certain aspects of the show is significantly different from a lot of other people's dislike of the show, because we were reading the text differently the entire time. (Note: I'm only talking about shipping here, because it's not like BOF had much to offer apart from that.) Ji-hoo and Jan-di spent practically all their time in the series, literally beginning to end, together, while the OTP (Jun-pyo/Jan-di, for the uninitiated) largely angsted from afar. So, most people hated the show because they felt an inordinate amount of time and narrative space was given to developing the secondary ship of Ji-hoo/Jan-di, while leaving the OTP out in the cold (and in different countries most of the time, let's face it.) While I hated the show because the ship that was given an inordinate amount of time and narrative space to develop, bizarrely enough, turned out not to be endgame.

These are clearly fundamentally different ways of reading. Not knowing that there was a formula at all changed my expectations of the text. For me, the Ji-hoo/Jan-di narrative was a gorgeously constructed OTP narrative because of the sheer amount of narrative space it took up, and how well-developed I thought it was. While, for the initiated then, Ji-hoo/Jan-di was a horribly constructed Second Lead narrative because it was breaking up the actual OTP narrative by taking time and space away from it.

So clearly it is possible to identify leads and OTPs even pre-watching, because you already have a set of characteristics and dynamics in mind and the characters that fit those dynamics are the ones that are the Leads and form the OTP.

The general identifying markers of a female lead usually are:

1. She's the first female you shall probably interact with in the drama.
2. She has certain characteristics depending on the character-type or the drama-type that you're familiar with.
3. It's a story about her, largely, in a set-up you're familiar with.
4. She gets the lead guy. bcz that usually tends to be the most important part.

These are obviously essentialist characteristics put in the most basic way, but they largely hold true. And it's in this regard that Coffee House does something radical, it uses the standard tropes of a genre that everyone watching is familiar with and then inverts them. This is not a What Happened In Bali, where it became fairly clear fairly early that it wouldn't really be a romantic-comedy, even though the initial set-up seemed to indicate it. Besides WHIB had a fantastically developed triangle, yes, but involving two male leads, which, as I've mentioned, is always a narrative possibility. Coffee House on the other hand, is about the female leads. It, in fact, does away with the concept of the female lead and second lead entirely.
Instead, you get two female leads. And in doing so, it betrays its viewers because you're watching it with all the baggage and expectations built over many dramas, and it turns out, this isn't the story you think you know. And the sense of betrayal is compounded the fact that you were so convinced you knew exactly where this was going, you may, in fact, have chosen to watch it for the familiarity.

What I find particularly brilliant about Coffee House is that it does all this through the narrative itself. There are no sharp turns or confused storytelling to make a point about what I'm saying here, because they aren't trying to make a point. It's only after I'd finished the series that I realized I'd been reading the text all wrong, because I'd been concentrating on the tropes that it was making making use of, rather than the absolutely clear narrative structure. And when I did follow the narrative, I kept expecting something to happen out of the blue, to set the story back on track to what I had initially believed it to be, so I could classify it in the categories that I had gotten used to since those initial BOF days. Which never happened, because the narrative itself had always been coherent, it had been my expectations of it that had led me (and everyone else, it seemed) into a completely false reading of the text. Not that there weren't red-herrings, because there were, but it wasn't constructed in such a way as to mislead, so much as to build an equal story. Park Si Yeon's Eun-young Got The Guy because that was where the narrative had been leading all along, it was her love story. Ham Eun Jung's Seung-yeon's narrative, on the other hand, always had been about professional success. It's only because I expect the Seung-yeon type to be the female lead that I automatically assumed that she must be so. She was introduced first, her family is introduced, she's the bumbling, kind-hearted, forever klutzy, slightly boyish, but forever-determined type, so clearly the female lead of the Go Mi-nam (You're Beautiful) variety. Eun-young seemed like the fairly typical female second lead in that she was the successful business woman, slightly bossy, friends with the male lead. Of course, she was oddly grounded and ridiculously charming, which was strange, but clearly that would be ~rectified in the later part of the series when she would obviously become the jealous, bitchy antagonist keeping the OTP apart.

Which never happened.

What CH also did was expose my near-misogynistic expectations re: the female characters for what they were. Because would I be revising my initial impression of the text to pass the mantle of "female lead" onto the character who I'd believed all along to be the female second lead (Eun-young) because the other character (Seung-yeon) fit so well within the typical characteristics of a kdrama female lead? And would that be based solely on the fact that she got the guy? To be honest, the possibility crossed my mind, like "oh, she was the lead", and since she was my favorite, I wasn't even questioning my thought-process. But, the fact is, the show clearly told me that I was wrong, that even if Seung-yeon did not Get The Guy, that was never what her narrative had been about anyway. Her narrative was about growing older, growing up, the first job, developing a crush on the awful boss, family dynamics, professional goals, dating, success, being a catalyst for the romantic arcs. So clearly she was the female lead, her failures and successes and pain and joy were important to the narrative. But in no way was Eun-young the female second lead either, because she had a solid back-story, she was given the space to be neurotic and bossy, but also vulnerable and emotional, strong and angry and unforgiving, as well as kind and silly and selfish and young and giddy, and every single thing practically that it is a possible for a person to be. She has her moments of petty jealousies, as well as magnanimities, sometimes all together. She screams in bathrooms in frustration and she's poised in business meetings. And she Got The Guy (which, let's face it, is important in a ~romantic comedy.) So clearly, she was also female lead. And the show basically was like: okay, so yeah, you get two well-constructed female leads, what is your problem?

Exactly.

The comments that I've read re: this show range from the absurd to the thought-provoking. There's the usual, "but why should the hot one get the guy? that's lame." Because pretty successful girls are, for some reason, not easy to project upon? Don't deserve to fall in love? Don't deserve to be loved? Don't have emotions worth depicting? No, seriously, this is so ridiculous (and so prevalent), I can't. All of the actresses playing the "average-looking" female leads in dramas are gorgeous, okay. Park Si Yeon (is my number one face bias) is super pretty and she owns it in this drama. But that's not even the surface of what she is. And I think part of this reading of the Hot One Getting The Guy comes from reading the narrative from an already biased perspective, the one where of course the average one Gets The Guy (although LOL@Ham Eun Jung being considered ~average looking from any angle, she's an idol, people.) not because the narrative so demands it, but because That Is How It Is. How dare the woman be the boss, pretty on top of it, and also get the guy? THAT MUST NOT BE PERMITTED. It's nobody's case; that kind of thinking is toxic. Mostly because it leads to a large stereotyping of successful women in a lot of Asian cultures (in my culture for sure); think Park Si Yeon's Se-hyun in My Girl. It's not that it's not important to depict the ~average girl and her successes in love etc., but why is that the only acceptable depiction of the lead female character? No one's ever said that "why should the hot, successful guy get the girl?" because lbr hot, successful guys are a dime-a-dozen in kdramas and we, or speaking for myself, I, at the very least, love it.

There were valid complaints too, people who were genuinely taken-aback by the set-up because the show didn't set any prior warning or red-flags, and I guess it can be annoying if you just want to enjoy a straightforward drama, think you know where you're going with something like Coffee House and then, instead, end up with a deconstruction instead. (Although, ngl, that thought is pretty amusing to me.) But also, it's clear through the comments that most of it is not the fault of the show; because comments about that publisher woman re: Eun-young make it amply clear to me that it's mostly a case of biased readings leading to thwarted expectations. I can't exactly blame the biased readings, because they are also clearly a result of watching variations of (mostly) the same thing over and over and practically unconsciously accepted by now. But "that publisher woman" just makes it obvious that the person(s) in question never really bothered to look at Eun-young as a character at all, but rather Quintessential Female Second Lead a.k.a. not worth paying attention to, which is why all her development or narrative probably escaped them and the ending was upsetting for them. That is the first result of any pre-conditioned reading of course, that you tend to concentrate on particular aspects. And selective reading leads to an interpretation of the text that the text as a whole may not subscribe to. Like, obviously if you're looking at something as an OTP narrative, you'll pay more attention to their comic/romantic set-ups as more romantic than comic even if the drama means it to be comedy, viewing all their interactions thorough a romantic lens, which fundamentally alters your perception of the narrative as a whole (as Community so effectively depicted through this gloriousness.) It can lead to not paying attention to everything else going on that may be affecting that set-up because the belief in it being a particular kind of text is so strong. And that belief/specific reading eventually makes it seem like the show does not make sense because the reading of the individual scenes and their interpretation in the light of a colored perspective don't add to the text itself. This applies equally to me, because, considering I wasn't even shipping the "OTP", I still viewed all their interactions in a romantic light, because I've so been conditioned to looking at OTP narratives that way. I read every moment of theirs furthering an eventual romantic arc, even if an alternative reading was obvious. So ascribing blame to others for "reading the text wrong" would be a moot activity since my reading was equally colored, even if my feelings differed. However, that does not change the fact that the drama took the conventions head-on and deconstructed them to reveal their functioning. The show is not responsible for how my expectations of it led me to read it.

Further, not only that, the text also had actual respectful interaction between the female leads who liked the same guy. LIKE, DO I REALLY NEED TO POINT OUT HOW RARE THAT IS? They weren't friends, and they never became friends or ran in the same circles and were sometimes unable to understand each other because of their personalities and class difference, but they always made the attempt to understand the other and they had a gloriously normal, healthy relationship of people kind-of working together making no oblique comments on Female Friendships or Female Solidarity or Female Envy whatsoever. (Also how much do I love that it's Eun-young- aka the girl who Gets The Guy- who's a little petty re: Seung-yeon with her "damsels in distress" remark when she feels she's losing her friend to the other girl, because that is so relatable. Seung-yeon doesn't have to be the bitchy one just to make Eun-young more "lead" or Eun-young doesn't have to be less petty to be "lead". And to think the first time I saw the scene, I was all "shit, they're going into Second Lead Female territory, now that the meanness re: the Female Lead has started, it's all downhill from here. Eun-young will now become a plot device to keep the OTP apart. KILL ME NOW.") Seung-yeon too is never defined by her get/not get the guy status, and if the only reason people feel ~sorry for her is because of that, then it's a waste of an amazing, fully-realized character. Especially one with a relationship with the lead male, which, if that's your thing, is also fully realized and beautifully developed. They learn each other, they have fun together, she's the catalyst for a lot of his character-realizations because she forces him to look at scenarios in a different light, like the exchange where she said that explaining what you felt may not change the action, but it could change the thought behind the action, which is an entirely different thing.

Further, even if the usual divisions of Female Lead/Second Lead are applied, I take the fact that people wanted Seung-yeon (if they consider her the second lead) to end up with Jin-soo, or Eun-young ending up with Jin-soo (if she's seen as the second lead) as a victory for the show. As in how many female second leads have you actually wanted to end up getting the guy/actually end up getting the guy? How many times has anyone sat through a drama and thought, "hey Hae-ra was so much better suited for Seung-jo in Playful Kiss because they were on the same wavelength." Or "Uee should have gotten Tae-kyung in You're Beautiful because she was so feisty with him?" or wanted Se-hyun to key her way into Gong-chan's heart again. (I would exclude Jae-kyung from this analysis because lots of people did think she was pretty suited for Jun-pyo. But Boys Over Flowers is generally just plain bizarre in this regard, imo. Also, because the more dramas I watch, the more I realize that Ji-hoo/Jan-di is possibly objectively a kdrama OTP narrative with their piggyback rides and wedding pictures and taking care of each other when the other's ill; very specific kdrama OTP traits. So either the show genuinely had no idea what the hell it was doing, or it changed trajectory at the end to please the audience.) But in general, no matter how many times you get Second Lead Syndrome re: the male second lead, it is far, far more uncommon, possibly almost inexistent, in the case of female second leads. In which case, regardless of shipping preferences, Coffee House is a radical departure from the norm.

The thing about disliking Coffee House based on these factors is that the dislike is stronger because people feel entitled to an ending, since the uncertainty re: the events in the text leads to new expectations from it. Nobody says they hate You're Beautiful because Mi-nam chooses Tae-kyung over Shin-woo; not because lots of people aren't equally into Shin-woo and would prefer him as part of the OTP, but because they already knew the endgame. So when you're shipping the second lead, you're aware that you're shipping the second lead, which is a doomed ship as it is, and you get the space for enjoying your ship while being resigned to the fact that it's never actually going to sail. But what it does is provide a frame-work for reading the text, because then your interpretation of the action (if not your feelings for it) are largely aligned with the text's. You might not like an OTP narrative, but you can be fairly certain that it IS an OTP narrative. While Coffee House throws this basic structure and assumption out to the wind, and tells you to go with the narrative instead of the tropes, which seems particularly hard to do. And on top of it, it does it while using conventions of the genre and lulling you into a false sense of security.

But all this is pretty much why I feel Coffee House is criminally underrated and mostly misunderstood. Because it never set out to mislead, it's the pre-determined expectations of the audience which misled them.

Maybe I'm biased. I went in, not knowing the set-up, yes, but pre-disposed to like Park Si Yeon anyway since she's pretty much my favorite kdrama actress since No Such Thing As Nice Guys (even more so post CH, she's resplendent in CH.) And my ship ended up together despite all conventions and beliefs so I'm particularly in love (although tbh it wasn't so much as my ship as what the show was going for anyway. I shipped the OTP thinking it the secondary couple, but I never thought that I was second-lead shipping because it was a second-lead narrative, but rather that something dramatic and inorganic would happen to put what I imagined was the OTP, at the forefront and crush my ship.) I went in with expectations too, but I went in with a different set of expectations from the text and a different set of expectations for my reactions. By some strange, stunning coincidence, they both coincided. Although I'm going to have to watch the show again and enjoy it completely, because the first time round, I was so ridiculously anxiety-ridden about the way it was going and whether some Kdrama Law would suddenly assert itself, that I couldn't enjoy half the things I should have.

Also, I have to say this: my OTP was glorious. It's a ridiculously well-written, well-constructed, adult dynamic, that is one of the most realistically depicted kdrama relationships I've ever seen. I, for once, absolutely agreed with the Dramabeans analysis of the ship and the show and I can maybe save some time and just paste that here:

Javabeans: And while [Jin-soo] has a dark side, I appreciate that this drama doesn’t glamorize it as a bad boy in need of a good woman to “fix” him; his depression is crippling, destructive, and hinders his ability to connect with people in a meaningful way. I appreciate the layers that were built into his character, even if I didn’t always like him.

But surprisingly, it was Park Shi-yeon who won me over with her Eun-young character. She was a careerwoman who wasn’t coldly ambitious, was loving but not about to lose herself in an unhealthy relationship, a loyal friend who could call her friend on his bullshit — she wasn’t a cookie-cutter heroine who ticks off all the boxes on a Cliche-o-Meter, like so many heroines.

Their romance was also one of my favorites of the year, because it’s one where I felt for them. Oh, there were lots of couples that I found absolutely adorable this year, but most of them were in the “cute” category; often I felt their romance mentally, but not in a real, gut sense. With Jin-soo and Eun-young, it’s a combination of the unconventional setup — friends for years, but kept apart by the memory of his dead ex-wife — and the actors’ chemistry that brought the bond to life. When they kissed in the rain, you felt her yearning, and later, when they kissed at the train station, you had a palpable sense of his.


and

Girlfriday: Thankfully, I stuck around, because when the drama shifted gears and put Jin-soo’s relationship with Eun-young (Park Shi-yeon) in the foreground, I discovered a magnetic couple. The great thing about Eun-young is that she makes every nutty thing about Jin-soo tethered to reality, because they have a history, and she has two feet firmly planted on the ground. So when he does something outrageous, when she rolls her eyes and laughs, or cries in frustration, we have a compass. A compass of sanity, as it were.

Coffee House actually got better as it went along, which if you think about it, is pretty damn rare in the k-drama landscape. Most dramas in the live-shoot system blow all their awesome on the first set of episodes, and continue a downward spiral ending in either lunacy or mediocrity; it’s the rare drama that ends better than it began. But Coffee House really hit its stride later on, when Jin-soo’s feelings for Eun-young began to put a real dent in his armor.

Jin-soo was a character that I enjoyed immensely because he was SO whacked out, but that also kept me from ever being fully with him. I saw that he had his own internal logic; it just didn’t resemble Earth logic, so while he always surprised me and made me laugh, he also frustrated me when he purposely shoved people out of his life, or shut down when faced with any sort of conflict.

I know this drama had one of the great ‘shipping wars of the year, but for me the two-heroine dynamic mostly took away from what it could have been, if Eun-young had been the central focus of the show.

The tone of the show often gave me whiplash, but when they went dark, or moody, or angsty, it was breathtakingly raw and intense, due to the stellar acting from Park Shi-yeon and Kang Ji-hwan. Their longing for each other, their inability to get past years of barriers, was gripping. What this relationship was doing in the same drama as the wacky zany secretary shenanigans is beyond me, but I’m glad I endured the one for the other.


Also, Eun-young is now one of my favorite female characters ever. And this is when I knew I was completely sold on her (not particularly spoilery- unless you think it spoils her character??- besides perfect, so outside the cut, but you can skip it if you don't want to be spoiled at all):


Eun-young: I'd like to stay [at the hospital] a little longer then. You've never looked after me like this before. I've figured it out now, writer Lee Jin-soo has two weaknesses: tears and sickness. If I'd known this, I'd have cried and been sick a whole lot more. But I've never been familiar with this sort of stuff, which is why you've never treated me as you are now.

Jin-soo: You shouldn't cry or be sick. What is the point of receiving care like this from me?

Eun-young: What is the point?

Jin-soo: If you were like that you wouldn't have your unique, cool charm. That cool charm is Seo Eun-young's strong suit. If you spent each day weak or ill, you'd have lost your charm.

Eun-young: Is that so?

Jin-soo: It is.

Eun-young: So, in order to retain my charm...I have to pretend to be strong when I'm ill, and hold it in when I feel like crying? What is that supposed to mean? I feel aggrieved.

Jin-soo: What?

Eun-young: I've got to hold onto this concept of being cool to maintain my image. Life seems unfair.


This was all playful banter mostly, and EY being petulant because she's bedridden (although PSY's disgruntled expressions in this were amazing) BUT HAS THERE EVER BEEN A BETTER ARGUMENT MADE AGAINST STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS (TM)? BECAUSE I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE. Damn, I just adore the hell out of her.

I'm afraid to even check to see how many words this is. It's 4700 plus words. BUT AT LEAST IT'S OUT OF MY SYSTEM? THAT'S A GOOD THING, RIGHT? Wish me luck for my exams. Plz. Or not, it's k. I'm pretty sure even god doesn't want me now but Darla does.

ETA: Kim Woo Bin Face Day tomorrow. Bring it.
 
 
( 39 comments — Leave a comment )
Alexia Lisa Drake: Emo - Inconceivablealexia_drake on November 20th, 2013 11:40 pm (UTC)
I hope you'll feel better now that you wrote it. lol

Good luck for your exams :D
youcallitwinter: till the end of the worldyoucallitwinter on November 20th, 2013 11:56 pm (UTC)
LOL, is it weird that I actually do feel a lot better, heh.

Thanks so much!! :D
Alexia Lisa Drakealexia_drake on November 21st, 2013 12:04 am (UTC)
lol No, it's not weird. A lot of people feels better after getting something off of their chest, no matter what it is.

You're welcome :D
youcallitwinter: there is such a lot of world to see.youcallitwinter on November 21st, 2013 02:42 pm (UTC)
LOL, true, maybe I'm not completely insane in my 5000 word-vomit of drama-feelings!

:D
ever_neutral: [comm] the cool kidsever_neutral on November 21st, 2013 12:11 am (UTC)
Okay, so I just skimmed this because I have not seen it still. Some random comments:

Which, hilariously enough, leaves us free to ship all the ships that are more openly problematic,coughYoungDoEunSangcough, but automatically become less problematic, because you already know they're not endgame.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OUR LIVES

:| :| :| :| :| :| :| :|

WHEN WILL YOU FINISH DREAM HIGH

While I hated the show because the ship that was given an inordinate amount of time and narrative space to develop, bizarrely enough, turned out not to be endgame.
FOREVER CONFUSED ABOUT THIS. WAS THE SHOW JUST KILLING TIME IN ALL THOSE SCENES???? LIKE???? STARCROSSED LOVERS IS SO OVERRATED TOO TBQH.

LISTEN, YOU MAKE A COMPELLING ARGUMENT ABOUT COFFEE HOUSE. WHEN I EVENTUALLY WATCH IT I WILL COME BACK TO THIS POST SO IT MAKES SENSE.

ETA: Kim Woo Bin Face Day tomorrow. Bring it.
EP 13 IS ALREADY OUT BUT I HAVE TO WAIT FOR MY MOTHER TO FINISH WORK OR SHE'LL GET MAD AT ME (L M F A O @ HER CRUSH ON KIM WOO BIN).

GODSPEED WITH EXAMS, BRO
youcallitwinter: fast times at ridgemont high.youcallitwinter on November 21st, 2013 03:11 pm (UTC)
I so did not want to write this till you'd seen the show for the fear of spoiling you (although I had this horrible feeling you might hate it too, omg) BUT THEN I COULDN'T CONCENTRATE ON LIFE, SO I JUST DID IT ANYWAY. Actually with this show it's impossible to tell whether it's better to go in spoiled or not, it actually literally depends on the person in question.

- I WILL FINISH DREAM HIGH SOMETIME. It's good to have something worth watching in the wings, since I'm running though dramas like...Usain Bolt????

- DUDE, YOU KNOW I AGREE ON BOF.

Basically my theory is that the PD was either in awe of KHJ's face (which, considering there was an entire, completely random scene, just dedicated to how beautiful he was- the one in which Jan-di's mom falls in his arms on the stairs and spends the rest of the day in a daze, LIKE, WHAT EVEN????- doesn't sound entirely far-fetched.) OR Ji Hoo/Jan Di was endgame OTP but they feared fan-backlash because again, people went in knowing what to expect, and didn't like having their expectations messed with.

LOL, post BOF, being totally new to dramaland, I was super-afraid of getting Second Lead Syndrome and being equally destroyed in every show that ever had a second lead and so didn't watch quite a lot of stuff. But it's only later I realized that BOF was legit an anomaly, there is no second lead ship that plays the piano or nurses each other or does piggyback rides, that's pretty much ALWAYS an OTP thing. I have yet to come across any secondary ship that comes even close to rivaling JH/JD in their narrative development and space. Also, because there were so many moments where the narrative could have turned, when it seems JD was reciprocating (HANDKERCHIEF? SOULMATE?) while that practically never happens with a secondary ship.

AND NHF FOR THE STARS-AND-MOON NECKLACE SHENANIGANS RE: JP/JD OBV. Although lmao@their star cross'dness being all symbolic-like.

(I will apparently never not have too much to say about BOF, alas.)

- I AM GLAD YOU THINK MY ARGUMENT IS COMPELLING. I AM ACTUALLY SUPER EXCITED TO SEE WHETHER YOU'LL AGREE OR DISAGREE AND WHETHER THIS WILL MAKE SENSE EVEN POST-WATCHING CH. Heh.

- RE: I HAVE NOW SEEEEEEN EPISODE THIRTEEEEEEN. COME AT ME, BRO. YOU CAN VOMIT FEELS HERE OR ON YOUR JOURNAL OR ANYWHERE, JUST GIVE ME. (crying@ur mom's flawless tastes tbqh. what is with the women in your fam tho, even your grandmother was a Katherine stan. Y'ALL DESERVE AN AWARD.)

- Much thankings D:
ever_neutral: [hour] bel + freddie = revolutionariesever_neutral on November 21st, 2013 11:11 pm (UTC)
I'll probably start some time this weekend, mmmkay?

Usain Bolt????
???????

Basically my theory is that the PD was either in awe of KHJ's face
As good an explanation as any.

SPEAKING OF SECOND LEADS. I am so conflicted over Heirs so just let me scream at you for a bit. I haven't seen ep 14 yet so these thoughts are not definitive, but mostly fresh and unfiltered: I am genuinely feeling your distrust about the portrayal of Tan now. I think ep 13 was the first time I actually felt like he was being portrayed as a ~hero?? E.g. ~Saving Ye Sol (?) from the evil ~Rachel, declaring he needs to ~make up for the past, etc. etc. Which I do not buy at all, because he is yet to show, like, ACTUAL REMORSE about the things he did in the past. (And he has shown ZERO remorse over what he did to YD just a few eps ago, since he seems to think that was completely justified on account of him being the good guy and YD being the bad one, &c. &c.)

Plus, this was the first episode where I feel like ES/Tan were portrayed unambiguously as a romance? Which, again, I do not buy since the last however many episodes consisted of him stalking/physically intruding/manipulating/gaslighting her into LIKING HIM BACK OR ELSE. Like. "I'm sorry for saying no before" ? ? ? ? ? WHAT ARE YOU DOING. And now apparently their main source of conflict comprises of YD being the ~villain trying to ~tear them apart. Which, NHFT.

THAT BEING SAID... I'm actually pretty into what they're doing with YD as a character in his own right. I mean, the reason I always appreciated him as a character is because the show never pulled its punches or painted him as a romantic hero. So my feelings there really haven't changed. My main issue right now is that the show is encouraging you to juxtapose him with Tan. Which does not work??? Because Tan is equally terrible and just has zero self-awareness about it?????? But disregarding that, YD's arc itself is kind of brilliant: He is a terrible person who's being totally broken down and having to build himself back up, sans an idealised love interest to ~redeem him. 100% HFT. (It occurs to me that ES/YD is basically the deconstruction of ES/Tan -- it's the privileged Mean Boy who wants to reinvent himself with this redemption fantasy woman!! Only with YD, ES is written as absolutely refusing to indulge that fantasy, which is awesomely subversive tbh.)

The thing is, I am really uncertain atm as to whether I am supposed to be viewing everything in this way. Like, it is just DOES NOT COMPUTE that we're even supposed to root for/sympathise with Tan at all. (Meanwhile, it has become physically impossible for me not to sympathise with YD because KWB has fucked me up smh smh smh.) IDK IDK CHINGU, TALK ME DOWN. WHAT SAY YOU???
youcallitwinter: some say the world will.youcallitwinter on November 22nd, 2013 10:41 am (UTC)
Part 1
WHY IS THIS SO LONG, APOLOGIES.

I'll probably start some time this weekend, mmmkay?

YES, SO EXCITED ALREADY \o/

???????

Since I was talking about running, I thought I might as well go all out *kanyeshrug*

As good an explanation as any.

You know that was it.

DUDE, ALL YOUR Heirs THOUGHTS ARE MINE TOO, OBV. Because idk, I kind of have no doubt now that it's being played straight. In fact, this is the kind of problem that I feel these kind of narratives almost inevitably tend to face, unless the point of them is a deconstruction. Because it's very easy to go from self-awareness right into romantic territory, so that once the romance is played straight, most people don't even deem it necessary to go back and address the problematics that had been raised earlier, you know?

I think Tan is genuinely an odd character-construction because I feel like I'm supposed to see growth on many fronts, but I...really don't? Mostly because I don't see where he started from, to actually be able to judge the ~growth. It also has something to do with the fact that all of Tan's near-mythical bullying is just mentioned in passing, instead of actually being shown on-screen, and I feel that the show vs. tell thing always changes the impact that any kind of information has on an audience. Like, we keep hearing about how Tan practically made all the ugly rules by which Empire High runs now, but even Young!Tan doesn't seem like the kind of person to be involved in all that he was supposedly involved in?? He actually legitimately seems like a nice guy whose only ~mistake was re: not telling Young Do about his mom (and that too for only ~five minutes.) ALL we've seen Young!Tan do till now is be nice to young!Young Do (lol), with Y!YD pushing him away at all turns. idk, it seems a very disconnected portrayal to me.

And then there's Tan NOW, who is clearly a manipulative, abusive, selfish, domineering bastard (the sheer number of times he's "stopped" Eun Sang from doing something or commanded her to "go" or "walk away", just.) Except that he is apparently really courageous because he's willing to change from who he was?? (~unlike YD who is "stuck" in his self-loathing and unable to ~move on.) I mean, it isn't even addressed that the only real reason he revealed his illegitimacy was because he wanted to break the engagement and date the girl he wants to date, not because he ~couldn't ~bear to see his mother treated the way she was, considering this is the same guy who couldn't be bothered to answer his mother's call for practically three years that he was away. (He's so fascinating though, with his ability to put the blame for all his actions on other people, "you would cry if I called", "Young Do is a certain way and I'm just retaliating".)

But it's true, he's shown zero remorse for the way he is. I keep feeling that he's strong-armed his way into ES's affections and now maintains his heroism by constructing himself as at least ~better than the other guy who likes her i.e. Young Do. Like, YD is so out there that KT automatically gets to be the hero, to challenge the social structure as he likes, since he's the one who created it. And honestly, it's never really mentioned that he HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. Because people don't KNOW about his illegitimacy as yet, so in school, he's still one of the royalty. It doesn't take an enormous amount of courage on his part to do what he does, but it's suitably impressive for ES who now does view him in a rather heroic light (I believe this post E14 for sure.)

Edited at 2013-11-22 10:47 am (UTC)
ever_neutral: [borgias] c + l = chiaroscuroever_neutral on November 22nd, 2013 11:25 am (UTC)
OK JUST SAW EP 14 AND HAVE EVEN MORE FEELS

In fact, this is the kind of problem that I feel these kind of narratives almost inevitably tend to face, unless the point of them is a deconstruction. Because it's very easy to go from self-awareness right into romantic territory, so that once the romance is played straight, most people don't even deem it necessary to go back and address the problematics that had been raised earlier, you know?
I fear you may be right. SUCH A SHAME. Like, this show is near perfect to me except for this one GAPING FLAW IN ITS CENTRAL ROMANCE. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

young!Young Do (lol)
lol.

Yeah, I wash my hands of both those flashbacks and Tan's character tbh. Again, such a shame the show's main flaw surrounds its MAIN CHARACTER.

I mean, it isn't even addressed that the only real reason he revealed his illegitimacy was because he wanted to break the engagement and date the girl he wants to date, not because he ~couldn't ~bear to see his mother treated the way she was, considering this is the same guy who couldn't be bothered to answer his mother's call for practically three years that he was away.
SERIOUSLY. WHAT THE FUCK. It is inconceivable that he is supposed to be regarded as the hero.

Now that I've seen ep 14 I absolutely agree that ES views Tan in a heroic light. Which explains why she can't hold him accountable for his douchebaggery. It's pretty sad, really. ES just hasn't known much kindness from people more powerful than her at all, ergo she feels beholden to Tan for the fantasy of "safety". I mean, she's so LUCKY to have someone like him looking out for her, right? Ugh.
youcallitwinter: the abc of growing up.youcallitwinter on November 22nd, 2013 03:05 pm (UTC)
LOL, I HAD ALSO REPLIED JUST POST WATCHING EP14 AND HAD HAD A LOT OF FEELS.

I fear you may be right. SUCH A SHAME. Like, this show is near perfect to me except for this one GAPING FLAW IN ITS CENTRAL ROMANCE. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

AND the romance is probably going to ~heat ~up because we're entering the final stretch. I MEAN. JUST. WHY.

Yeah, I wash my hands of both those flashbacks and Tan's character tbh. Again, such a shame the show's main flaw surrounds its MAIN CHARACTER.

I cannot understand the point of those flashbacks tbqh. Like, I know we're supposed to see how the YD/KT relationship soured and what they had been like before, but we basically see them behave almost exactly as they do now, except KT seems even less culpable and YD basically responsible for all their ~relationship troubles. Each flashback basically depicts y!YD being ~mean to y!KT because of his mom, post having found out about his own dad...which is pretty much their dynamic now. (Also, which is completely different from how everyone keeps picking on YD about always having been in love with KT. LIKE WHY ARE WE GETTING THESE CONFLICTING HISTORIES, IT MAKES NO SENSE???)

ES just hasn't known much kindness from people more powerful than her at all, ergo she feels beholden to Tan for the fantasy of "safety". I mean, she's so LUCKY to have someone like him looking out for her, right? Ugh.

AND HE SO WONDERFULLY MAINTAINS THAT FANTASY. He's always been all "stand behind me, nothing will hurt you" and forever ready to fight her battles for her, y'know? Confronting Rachel, dealing with Young Do, etc. etc. And he conflates all of that. Unlike Young Do, Tan always obscures his motive so his beef against YD is always made out to be about "protecting her" as much as his confrontations with "Rachel". THE MAN IS SO FASCINATING, I JUST WISH I WAS CONVINCED THAT THIS IS THE GUY I'M SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING, BECAUSE I WOULD SO BE HERE FOR THIS GUY.
youcallitwinter: and sometimes things fall apart.youcallitwinter on November 22nd, 2013 10:43 am (UTC)
Part 2
Like. "I'm sorry for saying no before" ? ? ? ? ? WHAT ARE YOU DOING. And now apparently their main source of conflict comprises of YD being the ~villain trying to ~tear them apart. Which, NHFT.

DUDE, SAME. Like, I've been viewing their interactions as straight-up romantic for a while now, so Ep13/14 just solidified that belief. IDK, it seems they're constructing a parallel around the fact that KT and ES are both ~social ~outcasts because of their family situation, which, WATCH ME LMAO@THAT.

AND TA ON ALL YOUR YOUNG DO THOUGHTS. Like, I think he's one of those people who would like to be redeemed by the ~love of a good woman. As in he would like to have a reason to change, to move past hating himself, so how amazing is it that his arc centers around him not having any reason? ES, by now, has outright rejected him, so all his actions, as much as he tries to make her the catalyst for them, are not guided purely by that consideration. Besides what's fascinating about him is that he always ascribes the worst possible motives to himself, no matter what his action (and oftentimes both, the characters and the audience, buy into it at face-value). Like, even when he's doing something like protecting Tan's birth secret, acc to him it's because he wants to "maintain leverage", although it's obvious to everyone that that's not it at all, because he doesn't reveal it, even when he's lost that leverage. Or that his motive for the whole broadcast shenanigans was literally getting to see ES, but he makes it about "Tan protecting her" and how he'll always be against Tan protecting her. In this regard, I think Rachel is super-astute, because she tends to see through him.

And what I absolutely ADORE about the ES/YD dynamic is that it's honest in every which way i.e. ES doesn't pretend to not be scared of him when she is, but she also doesn't pretend to be scared of him when she isn't, even if it’s post something like the broadcast room shenanigans. Their interactions are so regular when they're not fraught with tension that it's brilliant. (Also, sorry not sorry, he’s so ridic nervous around ES most of the time that it is just adorable, okay. He can’t even look at her straight when he’s being sincere.)

Also, re: KT/YD: the divide between the YD/KT attitude and the way the actors are playing it is SO CLEAR that it’s hard not to read into it. Like, YD after the confrontations that he initiates, is left drained and sitting alone, while KT is still all playful and flirty with ES. It literally doesn’t affect him at all. He feels nothing for the various incidents apart from that it’s Young Do’s fault that he’s ~unable to change as KT apparently ~has. That is legit his take on all these scenes. While YD is mostly self-aware, knows what he’s doing and still can’t stop himself.

And : (It occurs to me that ES/YD is basically the deconstruction of ES/Tan -- it's the privileged Mean Boy who wants to reinvent himself with this redemption fantasy woman!! Only with YD, ES is written as absolutely refusing to indulge that fantasy, which is awesomely subversive tbh.)

GIVE ME A HELL YES ON THAT? I hadn’t thought of this in these exact terms, BUT YES, EXACTLY THIS.

Like, it is just DOES NOT COMPUTE that we're even supposed to root for/sympathise with Tan at all.

The problem that I see is that this series is apparently 20 eps long and we’re going to into the shareholder/inheritance war soon, so I don’t really think that KT’s ~development is a priority, or the show even thinks that he needs a particular kind of personality development, but just that he needs to fight for his place in his life and mature from the high school kid he is. :s I don’t think his relationship with Eun Sang is being considered in a light beyond all that they’ll have to fight to make it. IDK IDK, I HOPE I AM WRONG????

ugh, I agree on KWB messing up any and all equations/unbiasedness obv. Like, watch Ep-14, HOW CAN ANYONE SIT THROUGH IT AND NOT FEEL FOR HIM??? He just has the best expressions okay, I don't even have a choice because he is responsible for how I act. /I am KT

Edited at 2013-11-22 10:52 am (UTC)
ever_neutral: [bb] skyler = unashamedever_neutral on November 22nd, 2013 12:00 pm (UTC)
IDK, it seems they're constructing a parallel around the fact that KT and ES are both ~social ~outcasts because of their family situation, which, WATCH ME LMAO@THAT.
L M A O, RIGHT? NHF THIS "US AGAINST THE WORLD" NONSENSE. Seriously, this analogy does not fly. KT might have oodles of man pain about his sad life but he is still ten thousand times more privileged than ES. And he's nudged ES into a state of mind where she believes he's ALL the support system she has? (Since she has to spend a lot of time/energy looking out for her mother.)

Actually, you know what, I think this literally explains everything about their relationship. ES has had to be independent and selfless and carry more weight on her shoulders than other people her age all her life. And she's resented the hell out of it, longed for an escape, ergo KT's "white knight" routine and domineering tendencies to take the decision out of her hands is perversely appealing??? /o\ /o\ /o\ (Not that she'll tolerate ALL the decisions being taken out of her hands. She'll still fight for enough agency so that she can feel okay about herself.)

Besides what's fascinating about him is that he always ascribes the worst possible motives to himself, no matter what his action (and oftentimes both, the characters and the audience, buy into it at face-value). Like, even when he's doing something like protecting Tan's birth secret, acc to him it's because he wants to "maintain leverage", although it's obvious to everyone that that's not it at all, because he doesn't reveal it, even when he's lost that leverage.
DUDE, VIOLENT AGREEMENT WITH ALL YOUR YD EMOTIONS. ESPECIALLY THE ABOVE. The most fascinating thing about him is his constant image control. Since he fears being vulnerable above anything else, he has to put all of his energy into the OTT moustache-twirling charade.

(Also, sorry not sorry, he’s so ridic nervous around ES most of the time that it is just adorable, okay. He can’t even look at her straight when he’s being sincere.)
IKR. SO PATHETIC. ALSO, CAN WE DISCUSS THE SOFT UN-GELLED HAIR OF CHARACTER CHANGE, LOL.

+900000 to the ES/YD emotional honesty. And continuing with what you said about YD initially being attracted to ES because of her vulnerability, I am pretty sure this is becoming true of ES too?? I wouldn't go so far as to say she's reciprocating but goddamn every time YD appears vulnerable she is SO INTRIGUED?

Also, re: KT/YD: the divide between the YD/KT attitude and the way the actors are playing it is SO CLEAR that it’s hard not to read into it. Like, YD after the confrontations that he initiates, is left drained and sitting alone, while KT is still all playful and flirty with ES. It literally doesn’t affect him at all.
UGHHHHHHHH, THIS?? It causes me so much angst because at the end of the day I have this urge for them to hug it out. But I have seen very little evidence that KT gives two fucks about YD. With the exception of him intervening when professor woman threatened to get YD's father involved, which, ironic.

I don’t really think that KT’s ~development is a priority, or the show even thinks that he needs a particular kind of personality development, but just that he needs to fight for his place in his life and mature from the high school kid he is. :s

#nicolas cage reaction image

Kim Woo Bin is a dick, the end.
youcallitwinter: the lonesome all understandyoucallitwinter on November 22nd, 2013 03:57 pm (UTC)
He's ALL the support system she has?.)

IT’S TRUE, RIGHT? LIKE THAT IS HOW IT SEEMS SHE FEELS? Which is so bizarre considering Chan Young and Bona (her friend with the “pretty heart”. I DIED WHEN THAT HAPPENED AGAIN. HOW ARE THEY FOREVER THE MOST ADORABLE? AND BONA IS EUN SANG’S SAVIOR. MY BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN <3). I mean, she seems really isolated, and KT initially brought her into that isolation with his New Money lie and the effort to maintain it. Also mainly because KT always makes it sound like he’s giving up so much for her, that she should at least be ~courageous ~enough to be with him in return. But, I think, post the “welfare student” reveal, I’m REALLY interested to see whether this changes, because she no longer has anything to hide and may not be so isolated.

To take the decision out of her hands is perversely appealing???

OH MY GOD, Y E S. DUDE, I THINK THAT’S TOTALLY IT??</font> That’s such an important part of her characterization, that she resents being in the position she is in now. She’s never had that “I have too much pride and must do everything myself because such is the lot life has dealt me”, considering that right when we met her, she was rushing off to the States to meet her unnie because how dare unnie just run away and live off their support and refuse to support them in return. She does everything that she can to get by, but she feels forced to, and clearly longs to get away. And when she met Tan, she was almost certain that she was never going to be able to; she had practically no dream, no ambition left. In which case, you’re right, I can totally understand the appeal of Tan’s “I’ll protect you”/“I’ll take care of everything as long as you’re with me” for her. Even when she knows it’s illusory, he provides an out, gives her what she believes is worth fighting for, because maybe if she fights just enough, things will improve (and this unlike before, when, even if she fought, she knew nothing would change.)

The most fascinating thing about him is his constant image control.

HE IS TOTALLY AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KID AS ES SO WISELY PUT IT. And it’s hilarious because he’s losing face left, right and center now, but he’d still rather be the bad guy than be categorized as “good” or “changed”.

THE SOFT UN-GELLED HAIR OF CHARACTER CHANGE, LOL.

L M A O. I KNEW YOU WOULD CATCH THAT. HI-FIVE FOR SIMPATICO-NESS, BASICALLY. NOT TO MENTION THAT IN ANY SCENE THAT THE TWO OF THEM ARE TOGETHER, HE WILL SPEND 99.99% OF THE TIME FOCUSED ENTIRELY ON HER (including situations where KT is holding a chair over his head). UNLESS SHE’S LOOKING AT HIM, IN WHICH CASE HE WILL SPENT 100% OF HIS TIME LOOKING AT THE GROUND.

But goddamn every time YD appears vulnerable she is SO INTRIGUED?

EXACTLY. And she can now distinguish between when he’s really scary and when it’s sheer bravado, which is progress, I guess???? Like, honestly, their interactions this episode were so interesting to me (EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE SADLY LACKING BECAUSE OF ALL THE KT/ES TOGETHERNESS). I can’t even with their post-broadcast-room scenes. The last they’d met before that had been with her pinned against the door, and she just walks in the studio when he’s sitting alone, and can read him easily enough to know that she can casually tell him why she’s there and offer him the band-aid. (AND HE REFUSES, BUT THEN WAITS FOR HER TO ASK HER AGAIN- probs because he realized that’s the max he’s ever going to get, a gesture that she makes first.)

Also, what I find ridic fascinating about this whole vulnerability deal in their dynamic is that they never use against the other where the other is really vulnerable. They have an odd sort of protectiveness re: the others’ weaknesses where they really can’t do anything because they’re not so much as friends, but sometimes, maybe they’d like to (like YD’s “let’s eat noodles now”, or ES’s band-aid peace offering or making him feel better about accidentally having revealed her work-place.)

But I have seen very little evidence that KT gives two fucks about YD.

Truth. I think it’s mostly YD whose life entirely revolves around KT who couldn’t care less.
ever_neutral: [comm] the cool kidsever_neutral on November 23rd, 2013 02:09 am (UTC)
Which is so bizarre considering Chan Young and Bona (her friend with the “pretty heart”. I DIED WHEN THAT HAPPENED AGAIN. HOW ARE THEY FOREVER THE MOST ADORABLE? AND BONA IS EUN SANG’S SAVIOR. MY BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN <3).
I K R !!!!!!!!! HOW MANY TIMES HAS EUN SANG CALLED BO NA PRETTY NOW????!!!!

I think Eun Sang perceives Tan as being her main source of support because he clearly has way more power than any of her friends. Chan Young and Bo Na are WAY better friends, but they can't protect her like Tan can. :| I'm not sure how much that'll change tbh, since if anything he was confirmed to her as being her saviour at the end of ep 14. /o\ /o\ /o\

Actually, the only sort of change I can see happening is with Young Do. Since Eun Sang seems to be (understandably) attracted to people who can protect her, I am very very curious to see how her feelings towards him will develop now that he's officially no longer a threat and is openly looking out for her. Especially since unlike Tan, he is not DEMANDING SHE LIKE HIM BACK OR ELSE? (LOL, HOW is that this is the relationship in which her agency is less compromised, I JUST.)

In which case, you’re right, I can totally understand the appeal of Tan’s “I’ll protect you”/“I’ll take care of everything as long as you’re with me” for her.
Yeah, ITA with your feeling that Tan basically just wore Eun Sang down. And I think that is kind of the appeal to her. It's the flattery thing. If he keeps trying so persistently then he MUST REALLY be invested in her, right? And no one's ever really fought for her like that. ALSO, I think it's really important/interesting that she wants to protect him too? It's significant that the first real move she made towards him was that hug on the street when he was looking all broken and lost. So, it's a mixture of both the protector thing + the vulnerability thing. Though, I think her wanting to protect him is mainly derived from guilt/obligation. He's put in SO MUCH EFFORT ~FOR HER so she feels compelled to return it.

I KNEW YOU WOULD CATCH THAT. HI-FIVE FOR SIMPATICO-NESS, BASICALLY.
DUDE. HOW COULD ONE NOT.

BUT OMG, CAN WE DISCUSS WHAT A MOTHERFUCKING PSYCHO TAN IS?? WHO PICKS UP A CHAIR TO BEAT UP THEIR FORMER BFF WITH?? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, MAN.

The last they’d met before that had been with her pinned against the door, and she just walks in the studio when he’s sitting alone, and can read him easily enough to know that she can casually tell him why she’s there and offer him the band-aid.
I wonder if Eun Sang judging that Young Do wasn't a threat at that point was because she literally just stopped her bf from beating him to death with a chair. LOL. I mean, I think she can sense that Young Do holds less power in that relationship and that the confrontation totally deflated him. EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID about them not using each other's vulnerability against each other. I'M TELLING YOU, THEY NEED TO BE BFFS STAT.
youcallitwinter: things we now knowyoucallitwinter on November 24th, 2013 02:06 pm (UTC)
LMAO, MY FAVORITE THING APART FROM THAT EVERYONE TREATS BONA LIKE A PRINCESS, AS THEY SHOULD, IS THAT THEY'RE ALL SO PROUD OF HER. When she does something nice while bitching endlessly, everyone/Eun Sang is just like *stars in their eyes. BONA MAKES EUN SANG SMILE JUST BY EXISTING.

I think Eun Sang perceives Tan as being her main source of support

Oh man, so DNW that Stockholm Syndome-ish dynamic if they're not going full-on wrong!ship with it. But I like the construction, that he has this ability to make everything that he does so appealing. He uses his power and lack of power almost equally to get emotional leverage. Like, in the school scenario where he has actual hard power, he plays it as going against the system. While, in private, he's all about his illegitimacy and his brother hating him and how he isn't who he used to be. So basically, the whole thing DOES come across as Him Against The System, even though it actually isn't- at least at this point. Man, he could be such a perfect character.

Now that he’s looking out for her.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME HOPE FOR THINGS. Because I SO WANT TO SEE THIS. Also, it can easily develop from the dynamic they currently share; like they somehow eased from confrontation into semi-comfort and semi-understanding and I think, in some weird way, Eun Sang trusts him to not go against his type or his words. Like, he'll make all the worst decisions, but he'll never genuinely go there, he isn't exactly a ticking bomb in that way. And she's already rejected him, so they've already reached ground level on that regard.

Besides, and this is something I like, Young Do is very, very aware of the fact that things she does leads to him feeling a certain way and not that she's making him feel a certain way, if that makes sense. Like, you often get these dynamics (and this happens a lot with kdrama OTPs also) that the guy sort of blames his emotional state on the girl, as in she's making him feel a certain way. It's not something that I'm "OMG NOOOOOOOOO" about, because I can understand that's just a POV, but here, it's interesting that he constantly lets her know that he's interpreting her actions in a particular light, while being aware that she doesn't mean it ~that ~way. Like, it'd be so easy for him to say that, knowing how he feels about her, her unexpected empathy re: him, whether it's with regards to his family or the bandaid incident, confuses him. But he absolutely accepts how she says she feels. Like, even with the "why are you always sleeping in the open like this, makes me want to protect you", the agency of his feelings is always on him, because he knows her actions aren't geared towards arousing these feelings in him. IDK IF THAT MADE SENSE, BUT I LOVE IT.

It's the flattery thing.

Y E S to the flattery thing, Secret Garden explored this much more openly. Besides is in so much power in a group that she's completely disempowered in herself. & as you said, he can be vulnerable and his family situation makes the glamor seem that much shallow, and his life that much more grounded and closer to ~her reality. Like, as we've seen, pretty much all the chaebol families suck, and the parents are awful, but Eun Sang doesn't know this about the others. All she probably sees re: them is the shine, while Tan seems different because she knows his secrets, so he seems special that way, more vulnerable, one of "them" but not really.

BUT OMG, CAN WE DISCUSS WHAT A MOTHERFUCKING PSYCHO TAN IS

DUDE, LIKE. THIS IS WHAT HE DID LAST TIME TOO, WHEN HE JUST GOT OFF THE ROOF AND STALKED TO YOUNG DO AND PUNCHED HIM.THE GUY HAS SUCH SEVERE ISSUES, I CAN'T. And lol forever@YD just standing there, staring at ES holding Tan back than actually making a move to protect himself. NO WONDER THEY WERE LOVERS BFFS.

And that the confrontation totally deflated him.

guh, YES. And I think this is one of the things that fascinates her about him, that he's so vulnerable re: Tan, when ostensibly it seems that the dynamic should actually be the other way round.

BUT UGH, IF THEY ARE NOT (AT LEAST) BFFS BY THE END OF THIS, I SHALL KILL EVERYTHING WITH FIRE.
ever_neutral: [dw] rose = adventureever_neutral on November 25th, 2013 01:35 am (UTC)
So basically, the whole thing DOES come across as Him Against The System, even though it actually isn't- at least at this point. Man, he could be such a perfect character.
I wonder if this is part of the appeal for Eun Sang?? (LISTEN, I AM CONSTANTLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE SEES IN HIM, OKAY.) It's no coincidence that the more Tan breaks away from the social system, the more inclined she is to be with him. Since the upstairs/downstairs thing was the main reason she didn't want to get involved with him in the beginning, the fact that they are seemingly more on equal footing now means she can "trust" him more??

So, basically, this:

All she probably sees re: them is the shine, while Tan seems different because she knows his secrets, so he seems special that way, more vulnerable, one of "them" but not really.

Plus, come to think of it, it was kind of inevitable since they've been in such close proximity ever since America. Because he's around ALL THE TIME (and the people in Eun Sang's life usually VERY MUCH ARE NOT), you can see how she might optimistically interpret that to mean he will be there for her.

WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME HOPE FOR THINGS.
BECAUSE MY PAIN MUST BE SHARED (AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE ARE 6 EPISODES LEFT AND THE TRIANGLE MUST SURELY CONTINUE)

Like, even with the "why are you always sleeping in the open like this, makes me want to protect you", the agency of his feelings is always on him, because he knows her actions aren't geared towards arousing these feelings in him. IDK IF THAT MADE SENSE, BUT I LOVE IT.
DUDE, I HAVE BEEN HAVING VERY COMPLICATED FEELINGS ABOUT THIS. ITA and I think that's consistent with Young Do's MO, since he's been raised in such a way that he values personal autonomy very highly. More than that, I think he is 100% aware of how he himself fucked everything up by initially making Eun Sang a pawn in his pissing match with Tan. He could have chosen authenticity over the image control but he made the wrong choice and now Eun Sang will never like him back and he really has no one to blame but himself. SELF-SABOTAGING FOOL.

I also think it's important that what Young Do really wants from Eun Sang is acknowledgment? Since he sees in her an opportunity to be authentic, there is nothing to be gained from MAKING HER do what he wants. I mean, he COULD do that, but it wouldn't be satisfying. Like he said, that'd ~break his heart.

DUDE, LIKE. THIS IS WHAT HE DID LAST TIME TOO, WHEN HE JUST GOT OFF THE ROOF AND STALKED TO YOUNG DO AND PUNCHED HIM.THE GUY HAS SUCH SEVERE ISSUES, I CAN'T.
It is hilar how Young Do is the one with the more self-restraint between them.
youcallitwinter: we still are made of greed.youcallitwinter on November 26th, 2013 02:45 pm (UTC)
L M A O FOREVER@THE FACT THAT "I wonder if this is part of the appeal for Eun Sang??" IS YOUR STANDARD LINE RE: KT/ES. But I am in fact completely sure that that is part of the appeal for ES. On the one hand she knows it's doomed to failure and that she's projecting (thus her "I know" to YD), but that doesn't make the alternate possibility any less appealing, the sort of continuation of her "midsummer night's dream", so to speak.

And I think she feels like Tan is burdened by his status because she's seen the whole forced engagement, business ventures substituting familial love, brother turning against brother, him being thrown out of the house, etc. (while I think Tan is clearly a princess who has no measure of reality in his entitled existence.) And imo she sees a lot of these actions arising out of her relationship with him (which is a streak of vanity also, and he specifically addressed this in the last episode in the "it's not your fault" "not your fault either" bit) so it definitely increases her ~trust in him.

Because he's around ALL THE TIME (and the people in Eun Sang's life usually VERY MUCH ARE NOT), you can see how she might optimistically interpret that to mean he will be there for her.

EXACTLY, THIS. After her sister's abandonment I think it rankles even more with her, so she's tried pushing Tan away, but he seems to come closer every time she does it, so I think she's kind of exhausted her arsenal against him and feels like the worst that she could have done she's done, and there's nothing she can do to destroy it, now it will have to be the ~circumstances.

BECAUSE MY PAIN MUST BE SHARED (AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE ARE 6 EPISODES LEFT AND THE TRIANGLE MUST SURELY CONTINUE)

DUDE, I HOPE SO. BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT THIS CONVERTS TO THE TAN-AND-EUN-SANG-SHOW, I WILL BE SO DISAPPOINT and bored.

He could have chosen authenticity over the image control but he made the wrong choice and now Eun Sang will never like him back and he really has no one to blame but himself.

GUH, YOU ARE MY DREAMCATCHER. /random. But, y e s. Which is why his list of ~demands from her are so tragically simple?? Like, all he really wants from her is to acknowledge his existence, pick up the phone, etc., and he basically can't do anything even if she doesn't do those things? [lmao, I wrote this before reading your next sentence and you basically said the same thing, simpatico \o/] And he doesn't push because he knows it's his fault. That initially it started off with Tan's interest in her and he never saw it escalating into anything beyond that (although he was def interested in her pre-Tan also, but I think he hasn't quite registered that), but now that it has, he irrevocably messed it up in the meanwhile.

Since he sees in her an opportunity to be authentic, there is nothing to be gained from MAKING HER do what he wants. I mean, he COULD do that, but it wouldn't be satisfying. Like he said, that'd ~break his heart.

YES. And also, I think he's also very, very aware that this is mostly about him, maybe even over Eun Sang. Which is why I feel it's different from all the other "I want it to be real"s (which are fairly common), because they're posited as something inherently special in That One Girl which makes the guy want to be real; while here, it's legit the difference in position, class, society and need for image control etc., and YD taking that as an opportunity to be real for himself, rather than Eun Sang. I think that's a far more honest position to take, because in most of these scenarios, it IS mostly about the guy even if he projects it onto the girl, except that it's very rarely acknowledged as such.

It is hilar how Young Do is the one with the more self-restraint between them.

lol, this show tho.

IT IS KIM WOO BIN FACE DAY AGAIN TOMORROW. ALL THE NOT-LOVE-IS-THE-MOMENT INTERACTIONS, GIVE ME.
ever_neutral: [dw] amy + tardis = runawayever_neutral on November 27th, 2013 01:00 am (UTC)
L M A O FOREVER@THE FACT THAT "I wonder if this is part of the appeal for Eun Sang??"
THIS SHIP WILL MYSTIFY ME FOREVER YO

Tan isn't pretty enough to be a princess tbh.

btw I was talking with Eleonore yesterday and she agreed with us that Tan proving his reliability is what made Eun Sang come around. His promising to ~protect her wasn't just an empty fantasy, because he's followed through. So to Eun Sang it's as though it's stopped being a fantasy and is becoming the ~real deal. Him starting to lose his status is also persuasive in this sense because that kind of thing doesn't happen in fantasies, right?

DUDE, I HOPE SO. BECAUSE IF AT SOME POINT THIS CONVERTS TO THE TAN-AND-EUN-SANG-SHOW, I WILL BE SO DISAPPOINT and bored.
LOL, IT PRETTY MUCH ALREADY IS THO?

GUH, YOU ARE MY DREAMCATCHER. /random.
YOU SAP

You forgot Tan tho. :p Eun Sang is totally a Tan proxy to Young Do lbr. Like, he wanted to hurt Tan by hurting Eun Sang. And now he's proxy-ing his need to be forgiven with her. Tan is totally the centre of this triangle. /o\ Makes me curious as to how exactly that bromance will be resolved ngl.

ALSO, it occurs to me that Young Do pinpointing "you have so many knights, makes me want to compete" as the moment he started having feelings for Eun Sang is very telling. It's not just that he has a protector complex but that her being ~spoken for and ~unattainable is what sealed his emotional investment. Because Young Do is most invested in people who are absent, obviously (his long lost mother, America!Tan...). HE IS ONLY WILLING TO GET ATTACHED TO THINGS THAT WILL CAUSE HIM LOSS, BASICALLY. HE ALWAYS CHOOSES THE SAD ENDINGS. MYUNG SOO IS THE WISEST OF THEM ALL.

I love that you call it Kim Woo Bin face day. Not that this isn't basically the crux of the show tho.
youcallitwinter: suppose we never fell in love.youcallitwinter on November 27th, 2013 09:08 am (UTC)
THIS SHIP WILL MYSTIFY ME FOREVER YO

LARGER FANDOM SEEMS TO LIKE THEM?? I'm beginning to think that larger fandom tends to like whatever the OTP is, regardless of any and all considerations. Like, THAT THOUGHT PROCESS IS SO BIZARRE TO ME. I have a far lower standard for liking non-OTPs than I do endgames. :O

lmao, you are correct, princesses with hair like that are disallowed as a species to exist.

LOL, Eleonore disagrees with us in general about Tan, though. (Although tbh, I wish I could also see it that way because it would make watching the show so much more enjoyable that way.) But I am in total agreement on that point, because Tan HAS been very persuasive about sticking around, even when it results in him being thrown out of the house, so that is definitely something that is throwing her for the loop, because if he had to leave, wouldn't he have left by now? And it's confusing the reality/fantasy dynamic that she initially had such a clear delineation of in her head, which is why her reactions are so markedly different, and she's given up struggling or discussing the inevitability of them falling apart.

LOL, IT PRETTY MUCH ALREADY IS THO?

BUT THE HORRORS OF IT BECOMING EVEN MORE SO.

And now he's proxy-ing his need to be forgiven with her.

DUDE, THIS IS TRUE. I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT THAT. But yeah, Tan is totally the center here (so one-sided this triangle is, lmao, considering that ES probably cares more about YD than KT does.) But I hope the resolution is good, because they have a lot of issues between them.

Because Young Do is most invested in people who are absent, obviously.

simpatico

^ THIS IS US AND OUR THOUGHT PROCESS /gpoy BECAUSE Y E S???

I haven't thought about that in those explicit terms, but that makes so much sense as a consistent part of his characterization. Like, I always thought of that dialogue as a general War Of The Dicks For The Girl In Question, but you're absolutely correct, that's not entirely what it is.

I think one of the oddest parts of YD's characterization is that he's willing to put himself out there (oddest because I think it's inconsistent with his character type, since they're usually emotionally contained as regards their own vulnerabilities). He's been ridiculously open in his feelings for ES, and his "first" love, as well as his rejection, are completely public.

The thing with him is, he lashes back at people who make him vulnerable, so it's an endless cycle of him hitting out at those who give him a chance, as you said, at authenticity. Like, he is the absolute worst initially, and then gains ground and tries to make up (constantly taunting Tan but never actually revealing his secret, terrifying ES and then basically working at forgiveness.) except it's sometimes always too late.

I think ES is also his do-over in some ways. He'll put himself out there for rejection with her, which he hadn't been able to do earlier with Tan. Tan gave him a chance at authenticity post affair-reveal, by making himself vulnerable re: his own secret, but Young Do rejected that, and instead picked on that vulnerability, and he's still paying for it. So ES becomes the person he's playing out the alternative scenario with; what if he'd just tried, hadn't picked on exactly that point where his lover best friend was the weakest, had allowed himself to be vulnerable then, instead of lashing out at the fact that he'd been forced into it by the situation. WHAT IF.

HE ALWAYS CHOOSES THE SAD ENDINGS. MYUNG SOO IS THE WISEST OF THEM ALL.

MYUNG SOO IS CLEARLY A HARDCORE META FANDOM PERSON. EVERYBODY KNEEL.

I love that you call it Kim Woo Bin face day. Not that this isn't basically the crux of the show tho.

I WAS WRONG THOUGH, TOMORROW IS KIM WOO BIN FACE DAY. /creys. Dude, these upcoming exams are so messing with my head and sense of time. AND TO THINK I WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO IT. /endless creys
ever_neutral: [btvs] buffy = warriorever_neutral on November 27th, 2013 10:00 am (UTC)
LARGER FANDOM SEEMS TO LIKE THEM??

UM?

... Are you serious, though? WHAT HAS GIVEN YOU THIS IMPRESSION? I mean, I have no doubt people like them because FANDOM GONNA BE FANDOM but I was literally just stalking fic for the show @ AO3 and ff.net (lol) and so on and dude, nobody is interested in Eun Sang/Tan, it's hilar tbh.

lmao, you are correct, princesses with hair like that are disallowed as a species to exist.

Where are the lies.

lol no, Eleonore is pretty much in agreement about Tan the person. She just has an ADDITIONAL desire to have meta parties about him, whereas I basically want him to be eaten by his ugly sweaters.

BUT THE HORRORS OF IT BECOMING EVEN MORE SO.

Dude, I just remembered you mentioning that the show nearing the tail end means things are gonna be ~heating up~ and l literally choked on my ramyun. LIKE. THEY HAVE NO SEXUAL CHEMISTRY WHATSOEVER, IT'S LITERALLY ENRAGING? PSH and LMH, I WANTED MORE FROM YOUUUUUU. /o\ /o\ /o\ PRAYER CIRCLE THEY BREAK UP AGAIN NEXT EP.

(so one-sided this triangle is, lmao, considering that ES probably cares more about YD than KT does.)

UGLY CACKLING. BUT LOL IT'S SO TRUE THOUGH?? Makes me excited for the upcoming eps ngl. (But ugh, I do not want to have hopes about this triangle.) I've been working on a theory that now YD's formally ~bowed out of the "competition", ES/YD will actually begin? I mean, presumably they will continue to interact -- only now it's not gonna be about the mean boys pissing match. Of course Tan will throw fits about it, but that will only make things more enjoyable tbh. NEVER GIVE UP HOPE FOR THE ES/YD EXISTENTIAL BROS STORYLINE.

^ THIS IS US AND OUR THOUGHT PROCESS /gpoy BECAUSE Y E S???

lol your aegyo.

I think one of the oddest parts of YD's characterization is that he's willing to put himself out there (oddest because I think it's inconsistent with his character type, since they're usually emotionally contained as regards their own vulnerabilities).

THE MIND-MELD CONTINUES. This has been bringing me amusement too, like when Bo Na and Myung Soo ~discovered~ and asked YD if he had a thing for ES, and YD was literally just like, "seems so," IN THE MOST CASUAL UNGUARDED WAY KNOWN TO MAN? It's like his self-preservation instincts are nonexistent, even though this is the same guy who's been obsessed all series with keeping the upper hand in society. Or rather, it just proves that playing power games does not come naturally to him. (OMG, NOW I'M REMINDED OF THAT FIC YOU WROTE, WHERE YOU SUGGESTED THIS EXACT THING AND AT THE TIME IT INTRIGUED ME AND I WONDERED IF CANON AGREED. OH EM GEE.)

The thing with him is, he lashes back at people who make him vulnerable, so it's an endless cycle of him hitting out at those who give him a chance, as you said, at authenticity.

WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT SELF-SABOTAGING PABO

So ES becomes the person he's playing out the alternative scenario with; what if he'd just tried, hadn't picked on exactly that point where his lover best friend was the weakest, had allowed himself to be vulnerable then, instead of lashing out at the fact that he'd been forced into it by the situation.

OMFG YES. I can't believe YD would not recognise the similarities in the situation wrt ES holding this ~terrible secret. And then he has to watch how it brings her and Tan closer together because Tan is able to do for ES what YD couldn't do for Tan. LIKE, WHO IS YD REALLY JEALOUS OF NOW.

DON'T CRYYYYYYYYYYYY. HAVE SOME WOO BIN FACE NOW:



ALSO, HAVE YOU SEEN THE NEW STILLS? THE COAT GAME IS ON POINT I MUST SAY.

(Godspeed with the remaining exams btw.)
youcallitwinter: and all the times i had the chance to.youcallitwinter on November 27th, 2013 03:28 pm (UTC)
I GOT THIS IMPRESSION FROM READING COMMENTS AROUND THE INTERNET AND STUFF. Like, the majority seems to enjoy hating on the show in general, but people who seem to want anything at all out of it largely want ES/KT (although a fair number also wants to bang KWB).

BUT NOW THAT YOU MENTIONED FIC, I ALSO STALKED THROUGH IT AND L M A O. I actually just found one fic re: T/ES by count, heh. ALSO, Rachel and Young Do, both together and separately, seem extraordinarily popular?? THIS MAKES ME REALLY HAPPY TBH. I kind of adore Rachel, and I have yet to come across a female second lead who gets fandom love (lol, that was what started this entire 5000 word post) so I'm really pleased that she is. (Although, by default, ES and KT seem extraordinarily unpopular in the fic world, even separately?? It is hysterical and O___o by turns.)

also, yes, pls. one of those ugly sweaters has to be carnivorous. this reminds me of Lee Jong Suk's character's quote in Secret Garden,

1

lol, I know El agrees about Tan-the-person, and I think if I didn't particularly care about what I think the narrative framing of the character is, I could probably enjoy him a LOT more. His capacity for manipulation is ridiculous and fascinating. But that hair tho. no. #kiddiepool

LIKE. THEY HAVE NO SEXUAL CHEMISTRY WHATSOEVER.

YEAH, LIKE WHAT IF THEY GET ALL ~COUPLEY AND US AGAINST THE WORLD FROM NOW ON, BECAUSE TWO EPISODES HAVE ENDED WITHOUT TRIANGULARITY AND IT IS STARTING TO WORRY ME TBH. NHF ~ROMANTIC ~SLOW ~DANCES AS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP US GOING TILL THE NEXT EPISODE.

ES/YD will actually begin?

THIS FOREVER. THEY ARE GOING TO BE BFFS BY THE END OF THIS JUST YOU WAIT. I do wonder how it's going to develop from here on, because near the end, the triangles also tend to ~heat ~up and tbh, I also want more on the romantic/sexual angle because at least THEY have chemistry. Like, usually at this point, it's the lead who ~bows out, or ~misunderstandings arise. LMAO, FOR ONCE, I ACTUALLY WANT THE KDRAMA PATTERN FOLLOWED.

IN THE MOST CASUAL UNGUARDED WAY KNOWN TO MAN?

YES. LIKE, HIS REJECTION HAS BEEN SO PUBLIC Y'KNOW? He's constantly rejected by ES in favor of KT in front of the other kids and all he does is book the entire cafe, so she'll talk to him and spend his entire time getting clicked looking at her all lovestruck. HAH. And even the whole pretence of being okay on the family front just crumbles when someone mentions his dad? Like, there's no false bravado there, he actually gets terrified at the mention (as in case of Tan's visit or the Principal threatening to call him.) Tan, that way, is the perfect bully because he's magnificent in his use of both hard and soft power, while Young Do blusters with hard power and fails at soft power, l m a o.

I think it's his sincerity that gets confused most often, because it's the way he says thing that makes people distrust what he's saying, even though, almost 95% of the time, he probably means exactly what he's saying. (As in him saying he's hurt re: ES constantly running off to Tan in this mocking way seems to discredit his sincerity as well as emotional involvement, but he's actually being honest??)

(Also, for a whole minute I had no idea what fic you were talking about, heh.)

LIKE, WHO IS YD REALLY JEALOUS OF NOW.

OMG, THIS. Because this is what his relationship could have been if he'd only done it right. Which is why he constantly brings it up, even now, re: Tan, even though he's well aware that that particular barb holds no power whatsoever, because that's where he went wrong, and he's constantly picking on it, when all it's doing is reminding him that it's mostly his fault and he can't fix it (he always chooses the worst endings.)

HAVE SOME WOO BIN FACE NOW

UNF.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THE NEW STILLS, BUT WHY IS LMH'S STYLIST NOT TAKING LESSONS????

(what remaining exams btw, they're all remaining, i haven't even started, they start friday /endless creys)
ever_neutral: [bb] skyler = unashamedever_neutral on November 28th, 2013 01:08 am (UTC)
Like, the majority seems to enjoy hating on the show in general, but people who seem to want anything at all out of it largely want ES/KT



I mean, I would assume people hate on the show because it's PROBLEMATIC. But in that case, WHY WOULD YOU THEN GO FOR ES/KT? LIKE. WHAT NOW? Also, this has been very opposite to my experience trolling Tumblr, where most people who hate on the show still prefer YD's character because he is at least presented as a reprehensible person.

RACHEL AND YOUNG DO ARE SECRETLY THE FANDOM'S DARLINGS, IKR. Although Rachel still gets plenty of flak for being a ~bitch. And it's kind of expected that ES wouldn't foster much fandom love, but afaik there's still a fair percentage of fic about her? SHE IS DOING BETTER THAN TAN, OK.

HOLD THE FUCK UP. LEE JONG SUK IS IN SECRET GARDEN? THE SAME LEE JONG SUK FROM SCHOOL 2013??? I SIMPLY DID NOT KNOW.

Yeah, I don't think El cares about the framing of Tan. Usually IDGAF about authorial intention either, but when it concerns whether or not we're supposed to endorse a vv problematic "romance" then TRUST NO DICK.

POSITIVE THINKING, ZOE. Like you said, it's about time for contrived obstacles to hit ES/KT, so let this happen.

Also, it'll be very interesting to see how the ES/YD dynamic develops now because although the chemistry is bangin', they really haven't had scenes hinting at romantic/sexual undertones? Usually these sorts of dynamics are all SEXUAL!! TENSION!! but ES/YD has been a lot more understated (with the exception of the pool shenanigans, which, lol). AND LISTEN, I WILL BE DEVO IF THEY NEVER MAKE OUT BECAUSE HOW COULD YOU WASTE THAT POTENTIAL SEX.

DUDE, YD IS SO BAD AT EMOTIONS. Supposedly his IQ is 150 or some shit but his emotional intelligence is like -500. Or, at least, his attempts to emotionally manipulate are the most pathetic because he does not know what to do with his own emotions e.g. the golf course standoff of doom. This is the most endearing thing about him lbr /pets. AND YES, HIS MISUSE OF SARCASM IS GPOY TBQH. So bad at human-ing. /pets

because that's where he went wrong, and he's constantly picking on it, when all it's doing is reminding him that it's mostly his fault and he can't fix it (he always chooses the worst endings.)

THIS IS PRECISELY WHY YD IS A RUBBISH OPPONENT TBH. BECAUSE HE IS ULTIMATELY ALWAYS LASHING OUT AT HIMSELF BY PROXY. (Not just with Tan, but arguably with Joon Young and whoever else he has terrorised in the past.)

BRO, THE NEW EPISODE IS OUT. HOLD MY PEARLS.

(I THOUGHT YOU WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR EXAMS RN. /o\ /o\ /o\ GODSPEED FOR ALL OF THEM THEN.)
Kelseykwritten on November 21st, 2013 10:12 am (UTC)

this is so lovely and wonderful and let me have your babies???

ahem

I will be back shortly with a real comment I promise I promise!

youcallitwinter: all you want is everythingyoucallitwinter on November 21st, 2013 02:54 pm (UTC)
lbr, we would have the prettiest, most kickass children ever. DAWN CAN BE OUR CHILD AND WE SHALL LOVE HER TO DEATH /gets carried away, clearly.

Hee, if you actually sat through some 5000 words of this, FOUR FOR YOU. And omg, if you ever have thoughts on it, I would be v. excited to know!
Florencia: Reading (Damon)florencia7 on November 22nd, 2013 08:03 pm (UTC)
I WOULD GO BACK TO COLLEGE IN A HEARTBEAT IF YOU WERE TO BE ONE OF THE PROFESSORS THERE ♥ ♥ ♥

Your writing is soooooooooooooooo compelling, so engaging, SO BRILLIANT. I've never seen a single ep. of a kdrama, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading your essay.

Best of luck with your exams!!!!!!!! *hugs*
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on November 23rd, 2013 10:16 am (UTC)
HOW CAN YOU CONSISTENTLY BE SO SO KIND AND MAKE MY DAY <3 <3

(omg, I so want to try teaching at a college once, though, I think it'd be really fun.)

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY READ 5000 WORDS ON SOMETHING YOU'RE NOT FAMILIAR WITH? :O I bet you were the best student your university ever had, there's no second option.

Thank you so much re: exams, I'm dying here!!!
Maeve: Chris Ecclestonmarble_rose on November 24th, 2013 07:34 am (UTC)
So I have nothing to add about CH because I've yet to see it, but all your posts about BOF made me really curious. I had already seen the Japanese version where, while Rui (Ji Hoo) was definitely sweet, there was never any reason to believe he was an actual contender. Anyway, I was just really curious to see what was different about this version and why you were so attached to Ji Hoo/Jan Di. So I started watching it.

WHAT. THE. HELL. Like I can't even. None of that was in any of the other versions I've seen. What did the writers even think they were doing with all of that?

JD: Whenever my heart sounds the emergency alarm, you always appear.

And then later:

JH shows up when she's sad: I heard the alarm

What is that even? How are they not happily married and teaching their two children how to play piano by now? I'm only at episode 16, but I kind of don't want to finish it because I know I'll be inconsolable once I do. But I'm addicted to watching them interact, so I can't help wanting to see more. Meh. I just need to figure out the perfect place to stop, so I can fanwank my own ending.
youcallitwinter: the ones that come easy.youcallitwinter on November 24th, 2013 01:12 pm (UTC)
Part 1
You should watch CH sometime, if you find the time! BUT CAN I JUST SAT YES BECAUSE I AM FOREVER STARVED OF TALKING ABOUT MY BEAUTIFUL BOF SHIP.

Also, everything you've said just aligns with what I've heard of the other versions; I've never seen Hana Yori Dango or Meteor Garden etc., but from what I know, the Rui/Tsukushi ship is good, but it's definitely second lead. Or, at least, that the Tsukasa/Tsukushi ship gets the best narrative and it actually feels like they fight to be together and that their being together is worth fighting for.

In Boys Over Flowers? NOT SO MUCH.

The thing is, as I mentioned in this post, I was really, really new to drama viewing when I started BOF so I didn't really have a conception of the tropes. But EVEN NOW, after I've seen some twenty odd dramas and get most of the tropes that typically occur, Ji Hoo/Jan Di is STILL pretty much OTP narrative according to those tropes? LIKE, HOW CAN ANYONE ARGUE WITH THAT WITH THE WAY THEY'RE CONSTRUCTED? THEY DO ALL THE THINGS TYPICAL KDRAMA OTPs DO. Even at the start of the series, when you have Jan Di crushing on Ji Hoo, they tend to spend time together, and while Jun Pyo/Jan Di still takes some strides in the first half, by the second half it is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY GONE. They barely spend any time together (except maybe three or four episodes in the middle). Besides what is even more frustrating is that you never really get the impression these two even want to be together, since their entire relationship, almost beginning to end, is dictated by other people telling them to "not give up". That is so un-OTP-like, I can't.

But it's also stuff like Jan Di and Jun Pyo having nothing in common except their grand love. They literally spend no time together to actually understand each other or have common interests etc., which usually is a huge deal in kdramas where the OTP is literally forced to spend time together some or the other way. Instead, here, you have moments like Jan Di hurts her arm saving Jun Pyo, who then disappears, and it's Ji Hoo who kneels beside her when she's miserable at the swimming pool, having lost her one dream and tells her that starting now, she's going to get a new one. They share so many subtle, quiet moments even apart from their clearly romanticized one, moments where they talk about their dreams or future or visit places and see things (and make stick drawings on the wall, bcz how adorable is that), and they actually understand each other better than anyone else (and don't even get me started on the whole soulmate/husband thing).

But I'm addicted to watching them interact, so I can't help wanting to see more. Meh. I just need to figure out the perfect place to stop, so I can fanwank my own ending.

Y'know the greatest thing about this ship is that it is totally an OTP ship, like, I always say that the only way I'd have been even madder at BOF than I was was if I'd actually OTP-shipped because they definitely got the shorter end of the stick. I kept thinking they'd ease up on the secondary romance as we got deeper into the show, but yeah, no. So, I can legitimately tell you that the best point to stop so you can fanwank your own ending is TEN MINUTES BEFORE THE SHOW ENDS. Like, I'm not even kidding, they're legitimately a strong ship ten minutes before the show ends. I don't even know what the PD was thinking with this one.
youcallitwinter: there is such a lot of world to see.youcallitwinter on November 24th, 2013 01:14 pm (UTC)
Part 2
Episode 16 has one of my favorite JH/JD moments at the end, I legit think it's one of the most beautiful scenes in the series as a whole. I love how the standard in this show is that JP/JD have some loud blow-up with each other or with his mom or someone and then you get a quiet JD/JH scene where they're just together, and the scene is all about silent comfort. Just.

Oh, and I'd once come across this comment somewhere and I think it encapsulates what I feel must be the difference perfectly:

You know, in HYD, Makino told Rui that she felt more herself with Domyouji, that with him (Rui) she always felt reserved. That isn’t true in this drama at all, in fact even before I switched over to the Ji-Hoo/Jandi pairing, after Junpyo got beat up for her sake and they were supposed to be together, even then I was discontent with their relationship, because I never got the sparks of joy/delighted sparring that I got in both HYD and Meteor Garden. The couple fights almost equally in all the adaptations – it’s Makino/Domyouji’s way of communicating – but in the Taiwanese and Japanese dramas I was always really convinced that they actually greatly enjoyed their sparring, that it was their way of flirting. Whereas in this one, when they fought, even after they were together, I had more of an impression of Jandi being actually unhappy – I couldn’t detect that deep satisfaction underneath that she was with Junpyo, it more seemed like she actually did get annoyed with him (I’m remembering in particular when she turned down their date with no signs of regret at all because she had to work).

Anyway, my point is, in this adaptation Jandi all too clearly does feel herself with Ji-Hoo – I mean, she’s done practically every girlfriend-y thing possible with him except dance, from travel with him, live with him, wash cars with him, kiss him, nurse him – and scratch that she HAS danced with him, at that party near the beginning of the series. She manages to fit him easily into her life and he integrates easily, from helping her clean the concert hall to decorating her apartment for her, and vice versa as she laughs with him, she teases him, she confides in him. No, there’s clearly no case here of not feeling comfortable/like yourself around him. Which is why the original dynamics don't stand ground here.


SO, YEAH, THAT.

I AM SO GLAD YOU'RE WATCHING THIS AND FEELING ME ON THIS BECAUSE I SAW IT SO LATE AND EVERYONE WAS EITHER OVER IT (OR OTP SHIPPED) AND I'VE HAD SO MUCH TO SAY SO YOU GET THIS RANDOM WALL OF TEXT, SORRY NOT SORRY.
Maeve: DW: Sexual Relationshipmarble_rose on November 26th, 2013 08:04 am (UTC)
Re: Part 2
YOU CAN TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS SHIP ALL YOU WANT. WE WILL TALK IT INTO THE GROUND.

I think that comment hits it dead on. Just...the entire feel of the dynamics in HYD is different than that of BOF. Sure, in HYD, Rui is still sweet and supportive, but it always sort of feels like he's teasing her, that she's still flustered by how swoon-worthy he is, the same way she was in the very beginning when he was the only one who was remotely nice to her. They never quite reach that tender, intimate place in which Ji Hoo and Jan Di seem to reside.

Honestly, I don't think that anyone knows Jan Di as well as Ji Hoo now does. Because he's the only one she fully lets in. No one else sees her so vulnerable. And in the midst of going through a broken heart, he seems to be the only one who can comfort her and make her smile. What is that if it's not love? I would be able to accept that she'd just friend-zoned him if it weren't for, like, every scene he plays an instrument ever. There's this quiet intensity that happens every time she watches him play. Just, the way she looks at him. OKAY NOW I'M GUSHING I SHOULD PROBABLY JUST STOP. BUT.

SPEAKING OF THAT HUSBAND/SOULMATE THING, I DON'T KNOW HOW NOT TO GET YOU STARTED ON THAT BECAUSE WHAT IS THAT EVEN.

It just...it makes me so sad. In this version, it seems so obvious that Ji Hoo is who Jan Di fits best with. She literally spends all her free time with him, doing every day, domestic things. He's the keeper of all her secrets, hopes, and fears. And he's really pretty, so we know she's physically attracted to him. So, yeah, he's the soulmate. BUT LAST TIME I CHECKED THOSE WERE ALSO REALLY GOOD THINGS TO HAVE IN A HUSBAND.

SOOOO. I keep blabbing at you, but I have one last thing to say (for now...I make no promises about later). I was stupid and watched the ending, and now I'm even MORE sad. Because even after all of the pain at being apart, Jan Di and Jun Pyo are going to be apart even longer. So during the time Jun Pyo is off studying, Jan Di and Ji Hoo...go about their normal routine? Except now with added med school and late night study sessions where he covers her up with a blanket after she falls asleep over her textbook, and when she wakes, he plays piano while she eats the pancakes he made her, AND BASICALLY HE'S GOING TO CONTINUE ON BEING HER BOYFRIEND IN EVERYTHING BUT NAME UNTIL JUN PYO FINALLY COMES BACK AND MARRIES HER, SOMEONE WRITE A NEW ENDING TO THIS STORY PLEASE.
youcallitwinter: we could have had it all.youcallitwinter on November 26th, 2013 08:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 2
CAN I JUST SAY, I AM SO RIDIC HAPPY TO FINALLY BE ABLE TO TALK THIS OVER WITH SOMEONE WHO ALSO SHIPS IT HARD. BECAUSE THEY SO CONSUMED MY LIFE ONCE. AND IT'S STILL THE SHIP I'M MOST VOCAL ABOUT IN DRAMA-LAND.

Sure, in HYD, Rui is still sweet and supportive, but it always sort of feels like he's teasing her, that she's still flustered by how swoon-worthy he is.

That's almost exactly what I've heard about HYD Rui/Makino as well. The idea that his sincerity is always in doubt because he's so good at the teasing, so even if his feelings are real, they aren't unambiguous. They definitely toned that down in BOF, because Ji Hoo's sincerity is not only clearly real, but also so palpable.

Because he's the only one she fully lets in. No one else sees her so vulnerable. And in the midst of going through a broken heart, he seems to be the only one who can comfort her and make her smile.

guh, YES, this exactly. And I love how many different vulnerable sides of her he's privy to; whether it's about her home-life, or her dream for her future, or romantic dilemmas, or even actual physical weakness or illness, he's witness to all and he's comfort in all. And he's also privy to her strength, he knows how many jobs she's working, knows how much of a face she has to put on to pretend emotional stability with Jun Pyo, knows how hurt she was by his rejection etc. LIKE, I JUST DON'T GET IT. This is such an OTP thing, this is exactly the kind of relationships that so many dramas spend time establishing re: the OTP. So the BOF ending doesn't only seemed emotionally unearned, it's also narrativistically bizarre. It's like the show has no idea what the hell it's doing.

ALSO, ALL THE TIMES THEY PLAY INSTRUMENTS OR LOOK AT PAINTINGS OR DRAWN STICK FIGURES ON THE WALL OR CLEAN WINDOWS OR CARS ARE MY FAVORITES. LIKE, they do so many of these absolutely adorable things together, and do it having fun. Like, the piano scene when Jan Di is practically in tears after making Jun Pyo's video is one of my favorites ever. Their scenes are so subtle, and conveyed mostly through looks and music (KHJ's Because I'm Stupid was definitely an obsession with me post this show, lmao), that it just tends to make these scenes seem so gorgeous and meaningful as a marker of a relationship.

So, yeah, he's the soulmate. BUT LAST TIME I CHECKED THOSE WERE ALSO REALLY GOOD THINGS TO HAVE IN A HUSBAND.

THIS IS ONE ASPECT WHEREIN I'M LEGIT BAFFLED. I have watched a lot of kdramas now, and the thing is, they're so centrally focused on the soulmate aspect of the OTP, the idea that you're destined to be with someone, or that there is someone that you connect most with. And I don't always agree on the soulmate/destiny business, but it does exist in a lot of dramas. I DON'T UNDERSTAND IF THIS WAS MEANT TO BE A DECONSTRUCTION OR WHAT, BECAUSE IT TOTALLY FAILED AS THAT? ALL that they've shown us isn't that you may have a "soulmate" but actually working on relationships is what makes relationships (which would've been a deconstruction) but that Ji Hoo is legit Jan Di's soulmate in the way that they're the ones who most deeply understand each other and would probably be happiest together. BUT HER HUSBAND IS SOME OTHER GUY WHO SHE HAS AN ON/OFF RELATIONSHIP WITH?? JUST??? Like, how could they bring in an inherently romantic concept like soulmates and then not even try to oppose it or anything in their secondary ship?

AS FOR THE ENDING, I CANNOT EVEN WITH IT. I am pretty sure that JD/JP dated for about a month in total in BOF and were apart for some 5 years. The whole thing is too ridiculous for contemplation. And that is the time that JH/JD spent together being medical interns together. just /headdesk. LIKE, THEY HAVE SPENT ALMOST ALL THEIR TIME TOGETHER FROM THE BEGINNING TO END OF THE SERIES, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS SHOW. It's a brilliant OTP narrative, but it's an awful secondary ship narrative, and it makes the whole thing a complete mess. (Also, you must watch further/before the end because the amount of OTP shenanigans yet to come re: them is outrageous and beautiful all at once.)
Éléonore: pushed me in the poolvergoldung on November 26th, 2013 05:33 pm (UTC)
can i read this tho?? i don't think i can read this so i'm not reading it aölskdjaöldkjö

I THINK I NEED TO READ THE COMMENT THREADS THO??
which i think alex has already reported back one thought at the time while i was in class today and obviously not listening #headdesk
when i get home

IN OTHER WORDS I AM ALIVE AGAIN AND AM FINALLY CAUGHT UP ON THE HEIRS AND HAVE UNPOPULAR OPINIONS I THINK OOPS AND REAL LIFE IS KILLING ME BUT HOW ABOUT YOU BB DID YOU SURVIVE YOUR EXAMS??? ♥

Edited at 2013-11-26 05:34 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinter: keep the streets empty for meyoucallitwinter on November 26th, 2013 08:16 pm (UTC)
can i read this tho?? i don't think i can read this so i'm not reading it aölskdjaöldkjö

THIS IS SUCH A DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER TBH, BECAUSE IT DEPENDS SO MUCH ON THE PERSON ASKING. Like, I want everyone to watch Coffee House and squee with me forever about my favorites and OTP, but I'm afraid that going into it announced and unwarned may ruin the experience and make a person dislike it. Except that half of the gloriousness comes from what may ruin it for some. THE WHOLE THING IS A MESS TO DELINEATE. JUST WATCH, BASICALLY.

LMAO, yes, read the comment threads, they may be items of your interest as Alex and I have basically being Heirs-ing it out although the tl;dr is KIM WOO BIN HAS A FACE (and occasionally wet hair).

OMG, HAI, I HAVE SO MISSED YOU BECAUSE ALL I WANT TO DO IS TALK KDRAMAS. AND GIVE ME ALL THE UNPOPULAR OPINIONS. Although tbh, I don't think there is such a thing as an 'unpopular opinion' in this standom, because I have yet to meet two people who think the same thing about anything in it, heh.

(ALSO, SURVIVE MY EXAMS?? THEY HAVEN'T EVEN BEGUN (although they will at the end of the week). THEREFORE THE PRAYER CIRCLE. I SO NEED TO MIA ON FANDOM DAMMIT.)
Éléonore: dans cette ombrevergoldung on November 26th, 2013 09:41 pm (UTC)
CRYING BECAUSE I JUST GOT HOME AND AFTER WHAT FEELS FOR-FUCKING-EVER I FINALLY GOT THE INTERNET TO WORK AND NOW YOU ARE PROBABLY IN BED ALREADY AND I HATE TIME ZONES ;___;

i'll watch. at some point. and come back to this post because i crave your pretty thoughts always <3

tbh this entire chat convo is ridiculous and you should see it. i'm in class, trying to be discreet, typing on my phone (ergo one million of typos) while alex reports all of your opinions one by one, for me to agree or disagree. and then every new thought of yours is introduced by something like "ok so back to zoe". i can't decide if it's hilar, sad or genius. but our ways of communication as a fandom are very unique lmao.

but dude :'( i think i have the only possible unpopular opinion in that i am obsessed with dissecting tan's character??? DON'T LAUGH. so while all of fandom is creying about what a boring douche he is, i'm all BUT GUYS LET'S MAKE ALL THE TAN META!!!! like the amount of my overanalytical headcanon is super gross. i'm just so interested by him as a peter pan character in the context of his relations with youngdo-and-eunsang-the-cynics.

so i have all the messy notes thrown together for a future ot3 dynamics/parallels/opposites post. maybe. which might end up being called "kim tan or the power of prophetic language". and because i just really like this title, i know proceed to tell it to everyone because if this post never happens (if real life eats me) then i want everybody to know at least that my title was cool ok.

I JUST HAVE A LOT OF THOUGHTS OK. /creys

OMG ALL THE PRAYING FOR YOUR EXAMS SAKJDMADJM THINKING OF YOU DEARLY!!!

Edited at 2013-11-26 09:46 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinter: the salt-wound routine.youcallitwinter on November 27th, 2013 08:09 am (UTC)
THESE CLASHING TIMEZONES ARE TOTALLY THE WORST OKAY, HOW IS THIS EVEN A THING. WHY CAN'T WE ALL LIVE TOGETHER IN RAINBOWS AND SUNSHINE.

yesss, watch!! although when you start watching, you must come to me after six episodes or so and tell me what you think so I can tell you whether it'll be in your best interest to read this before going further, or not. COFFEE HOUSE MAKES ME CRYPTIC.

HAHAHAHA@yours and Alex's mode of communication!! I'm wondering if I should be jealous because you guys are communicating in my periods of non-communication, haha. BUT \O/ AT YOU BEING ALL CAUGHT UP WITH FANDOM IN MIDDLE OF CLASS.

Dude, trust me, that is not an unpopular opinion, larger fandom in general loooooves Tan. AND IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS ABOVE, I NEVER SAID TAN IS A BORING DOUCHE, I THINK HE'S UTTERLY FASCINATING. I think Tan/ES is boring. Or rather, I think he has the potential to be fascinating, except that I (and I think Alex) don't really think the narrative portrayal is self-aware at all. By now I'm pretty convinced it isn't, which is hampering my enjoyment of his dynamics some. BUT YES TO META AND HIS "PETER PAN-NESS" IS TOTALLY A THING, YOU ARE CORRECT.

"kim tan or the power of prophetic language".

2

^this is me at the idea.

dude, I have totally written entire academic papers on specific topics just because I thought of a cool title

I AM HERE 4 U. AND MUCH THANKS FOR YOUR PRAYERS, IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT CAN SAVE ME NOW.
Éléonore: mon âme qui montevergoldung on November 27th, 2013 02:02 pm (UTC)
ughhh the internet killed my comment so i had to start from scratch grrr
BUT BRO. HOW IS IT THAT I CAN BE ATTACHED TO THE HIP WITH ALEX WHO GOES TO BED LIKE FIVE HOURS EARLIER THAN YOU. I THINK WE'RE DOING THIS WRONG?? BOO US. tbf it's really complicated for me to be on eljay during the day (right now is an exception), so i'm mostly available via chat. COME TO ME CHILD AND JOIN THE META FANWANKING OF DOOM. omfg we could even group chat. can you imagine the glory, i'm crying just thinking about it o m g. your call bb.

(and lol you'll be happy to know then that i finished watching ep 14 during lunch break yesterday, so literally IN CLASS. i could not be more obvious a fangirl if i tried /headdesk)

DUDE i know fandom at large prob loves tan, but i don't love him i think he's the worst. i just have a boner for the character work. and that's why i feel like we aren't watching the same show, because i just don't care all that much about the framing. i mean, don't take me wrong, i'll prob be super upset if it turns out that they endgame a super offensive version of the ship. but atm it's not really impeding with my enjoyment of the show/ship, because what i'm interested in is the construction. the narrative really talks to me on both a personal and intellectual level. so they're not really something i want to ship but i am endlessly fascinated by this dynamic. like for now i haven't spent that much time thinking about whether it's a right or a wrong ship because that doesn't really matter to me in terms of characterization. that's more a media narrative issue and even though i find it important it's not my main point of focus right now.

anyway. i have a lot of feelings. please hold me and tell me that i'm not crazy ;;; (and ilu for indulging my pompous title and askldjaökdj that drawing is so adorns omfg)
youcallitwinter: with pretty-eyed boys girls die to trustyoucallitwinter on November 27th, 2013 02:41 pm (UTC)
Re: ughhh the internet killed my comment so i had to start from scratch grrr
LMAO, BECAUSE I LIVE BY A TIME-ZONE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TO MINE, IT IS KNOWN. I'm not even kidding, lol, my sleeping pattern is awful. I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT CHAT HERE IS LMAO. And I don't have access to eljay anywhere except at home on my laptop, so that is there :(

(L O L, COME TO ME, YOU BEAUTIFUL CHILD OF FANDOM GOODNESS. I actually thought today was thursday and I'd get a new episode and I WAS SO DISAPPOINTED WHEN I REALIZED IT WAS WEDNESDAY.)

i just have a boner for the character work. and that's why i feel like we aren't watching the same show, because i just don't care all that much about the framing.

Haha, yeah, I can understand that. tbh, we're watching the same show, but in different ways. Framing is forever my favorite thing (I remember writing some 5000 word meta on it also here), so while I can enjoy Tan's characterization and aspects of his personality really fascinate me, it's never going to emotionally appeal to me, unless I think that the framing of the show is in tune with the reading that I'm deriving. This is also one of the reasons Tae-kyung and You're Beautiful completely worked for me, because there was not one moment in that show that I was not convinced that the show was levelling with me and what I was seeing was exactly what I was supposed to be seeing. I think part of this is also that I'm used to seeing wrong!ships and fascinating character-work galore, but it's the framing that makes the distinction between what I thoroughly enjoy, and where I'm just exasperated. Like, there is no lack of manipulative, stockholm-syndrome-ish dynamics in the tv-world, but whether they're always presented as such becomes a matter of personal preference and opinion, I suppose! It's not that I want Tan or Tan/Eun Sang to become different people or share a different, "right" dynamic, but the framing of their scenes would legit change the entire narrative for me.

*HOLDS* BUT DUDE, YOU ARE IN NO WAY CRAZY, AS I WAS TELLING ALEX, I JUST WISH I WAS READING IT YOUR WAY BECAUSE IT WOULD BE X TIMES MORE ENJOYABLE (listen, pompous titles are my thing, I LIVE for them omg.)
Éléonorevergoldung on November 27th, 2013 06:22 pm (UTC)
Re: ughhh the internet killed my comment so i had to start from scratch grrr
Awww you know i feel the timezone fail <33 But tonight I have no internet so I might some sleep for a change. Do you mean lj chat? Because i have never been able to figure out how the fuck that's supposed to work. I like to use gchat because it's in my browser window and that pleases me. Alex is an AIM person but i think she's using ichat (but i'm not sure). Point is, as long as you have an email address there are tons of platforms lining up to be your friend. With some people i also chat over skype, which is kind of a pain in the ass (and i cant really talk from my phone). But fyi i'll totally conquer a new platform for you if you tell me which one, js.

(L m f a o :') alex said the same fucking thing morning about how she hated wednesdays because the eps came out but without subs and there was nothing left for her but brooding. Y'all are so dramatic)

Forever lol that your example of a framing that works for you is YB because as you know that's one case where the framing bugged me too much for me to just enjoy character work ;)

I dont have internet tonight (hear me cry) so i'll try working on that meta post so it can be more than just a cool, pompous title ^^
youcallitwinter: what I gave is yours to keep.youcallitwinter on November 27th, 2013 10:58 pm (UTC)
Re: ughhh the internet killed my comment so i had to start from scratch grrr
And I HAVE to ease up on fandom now because exams from Friday!! The Having Internet thing is really not helping at all D: But, no? I've never used LJ chat at all! I have never used any kind of chat since MSN, and now it's mostly Facebook, although I don't really ever go online on chat on it because so many random people I absolutely do not want to talk to, lol. It's a weird character-trait because I'm actually super social IRL but I just go MIA as soon as I'm out of sight, heh.

LOL, I think I'm saved that trauma of watching episodes raw because they legit do not even come out somewhere I can watch them since half the sites people use are blocked here :x

Hahaha, I deliberately used that example of You're Beautiful BECAUSE we disagree on the subject, of course. I just wanted to emphasize that reading framing differently would probably make reactions to the same thing entirely different. :D Like, in that show, I always felt the show was completely aware of all its problematics and often parodied or subverted them, but the framing didn't work for you at all, which is kinda my position with Heirs right now, heh.

OMG, YES, GIVE ME A COOL-TITLED POST. Although now I'm seriously considering just going off till everything is over because what even am I doing here still when I should be studying!!
( 39 comments — Leave a comment )