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25 March 2014 @ 01:30 am
i know the moment when the abandonment looked a lot like flight.  
I have written eight fics in a week. eight.

I am never getting over anything, anything, ever.

Also, I didn't initially realize this but it's:

[spoiler.]You're out of my life, forever.

bookended with:

Come back to me. Always.

excuse me while i go jump off something. [but I have seen nearly every city from a rooftop without jumping. we were never tragedies, we were emergencies.]

Also, I've been very :s about some of the movie reviews that I feel completely miss the entire point of the movie; [especially ones like this, which I wrote a long reply to that I'm posting here] and have this inexplicable idea that Veronica coming back is a step down and not 'feminist enough' and Veronica is giving up her entire life for a boy which, what even.

I think this article, somewhere, misses the point of the movie? Veronica initially came back for Logan, sure (and honestly, the fact that he was blamed for another girlfriend's murder was because this time he came to rescue someone from a 'moment of weakness', as almost their sponsor, and as the people involved knew he would- no good deed goes unpunished- so it seems inordinately simplistic to say 'yet another girlfriend of Logan's') but she stayed for Neptune. The movie is in no way about Veronica giving up her cushy life for Logan, it's Veronica realizing, yet again, that she's the kind that fights the good fight. Veronica could have moved on, she had the opportunity, but, as Veronica says early in S1, 'the hero is the one who stays'. The central conceit isn't Logan/Veronica or the addiction metaphor, it's who VERONICA is, and she isn't the kind of person to 'move on' while her town's sunk to the depths of slime and corruption that it has. Could she have taken the easy way out and stayed with the Piz and spent her life earning tons of money by making frivolous lawsuits against multinationals disappear (and essentially turned into an 09er), yes. But then would she be Veronica Mars? No. Veronica, by leaving, by her own definition, became the villain of her own story.

I'm just a little bit surprised at the article, because if Veronica had done exactly what the article suggests would have made her a feminist, it would also have been what would have made her accept social structures (and patriarchal, wealth/power-driven social structures) exactly as they are. Not only accept those structures, but reinforce them, as part of the system-- a system that she spent her entire run on the series fighting against. I don't understand in what world Veronica Mars's "stated life goals" include a nice boyfriend and a high paying job for big corporations. I also disagree on a lot of analysis of female characters, and reducing them to one word stereotypes- all of them, from Lilly Kane to Kendall to yeah, Gia Goodman are interesting in their own right in several different ways. Not only that, but I don't think that any of these women needed to be a 'certain type of woman' to be acceptable for the sake of feminism; they have their issues, they have their wits and skills and damage and that's fascinating. Like the fact that Lilly is depicted as headstrong and foolhardy and selfish, yes, but NEVER ONCE blamed for her rape or death by anyone- especially Veronica and Logan. It would've been easy to say that Lilly knew what she was doing with Aaron and she got herself killed, but the depiction of Lilly- and it is a RARE depiction with a character like Lilly, who is so exactly the kind of woman that patriarchy despises; sexual and bold and transgression- has always been sympathetic. Nothing that came to light about Lilly changed the opinions of the people who loved her, because they knew, regardless of everything, Lilly was a sixteen year old girl who DID NOT 'deserve' to die or be raped or be punished for being 'the kind' of person she was. Logan's assessment is his "old man defiling the love of his life", because the show has no qualms about using a cultural laden purity-term to define a girl who falls outside the traditional scope of that term. That is Veronica Mars's feminism- it's complex because it doesn't only check off boxes like strong female character! (the trope is problematic in itself) or yay female friendships!

I would also like to add that I'm slightly wary of using feminism as a one-trick pony; the idea that a feminist narrative has to Be A Certain Way to be a feminist narrative, which I think is rather limiting, and antithetical to the idea of feminism. Even without going into the complications of the requirements of the noir genre, If the roles were reversed, and it were a male character who had left his high profile job offer for a big corporation to fight for the little guys, given up a potentially successfully legal career because he'd seen how any sort of legal system was a complete sham in a world where only the people to afford the price of it were entitled to what was labelled 'justice', given up the dream life to return to his corrupt, brutal home-town to try and wash away the slime a little, if such a character had metaphorically returned to the ring (how common is the One Last Case trope in so many big male-dominated narratives) to fight the good fight, would that narrative EVER be considered disempowering? Hasn't the fight against power structures, regardless of whether you win or not, always been considered and been the basis for some of the most inspiring, empowering narratives? But somehow it's disempowering for Veronica to do the same? Because feminism requires that women be successful in a particular socially-defined way, regardless of whether they want to or not? And worse, that if you CHOOSE to give that up- all the socially acceptable things, like a nice boyfriend and a good job- for something that you actually want to do, something you feel is your calling, then feminism- which has always, first and foremost, been about the freedom of choice- tells you that you are not feminist enough and not an inspiration anymore? I find it very, very hard to get my head around that.

Feminism can be in a multitude of unexpected things- Lianne Mars, for instance. Even something like dismantling the romanticization of motherhood, in my opinion, can be considered feminism. Lianne Mars is an unapologetically awful mother, and she literally never returns, even in the movie- and yet she has her own backstory, her own tragedies; whether that's alcoholism or her doomed love story. Or Veronica's emotional unavailability, which I think is so beautiful precisely because it's SO RARE. How often are female characters allowed to be emotionally unavailable? Also, I feel like there's a bias against Logan here, like his mere presence makes Veronica less 'feminist' which again I disagree with, because their relationship is a pretty great deconstruction of gendered dynamics; Logan is so often the homme fatale, the damsel in distress, the Bacall to Veronica's Bogart. He's overly expressive,  and laden with hand gestures and expressions, while she's constrained, distant so many times- a reversal for sure. And honestly, Logan's abuse, throughout the series, has literally only been mentioned THRICE, and twice just as an afterthought (once as a joke by Logan himself). I'm not speaking of fandom, which wants to excuse Logan all his sins, but the show itself has never excused Logan (just like it doesn't excuse Veronica when she goes that extra mile in need for personal vengeance and in the last episode of the series, has managed to destroy so much), it's never been said in the show that Logan gets a free pass to do whatever he wants because his daddy used to beat him up; he always has to face the consequences, sometimes even for things he's accused of but didn't actually do- loses his house, nearly gets beaten to death, even loses Veronica by the end of it, is on the hit-list of the Russian mafia, is also a kid without any kind of emotional support base at all (unlike even Veronica, who has her wonderful father and Mac and Wallace). Logan suffers through plenty of consequences, and Veronica only comes back to him in the movie when he's no longer a bottomless well of anger and lashing out and has sorted his life some. The show's feminist credentials are nowhere near perfect by far, and I completely agree with the depiction of Lilith House feminists and personally, even Madison Sinclair being painted as the villain and Veronica's misplaced anger towards her (while she gave Veronica the roofied drink by accident, it was meant for her, which is pretty awful when you think of it), while Dick gets what feels like a free pass is not cool at all, but I still find it very hard to agree with the argument that the article makes.

That is not to say that if Veronica had chosen the other route-- stayed in New York with all the associations thereof-- the narrative would have been 'less feminist' then or is 'more feminist' now for Veronica having come back. Neither the feminism of the show, nor the movie, is contingent on that. One of the mistakes (and it's not here alone, it's reviews in a lot of other places) is the conflation of Veronica's POV with the show/movie. The idea that Veronica, as a character, needs to be a feminist for the narrative to be feminist. Which, I'd say, is completely not true. One of the greatest strengths of this show has always been how it has deeply empathized with its damaged lead and yet not let her POV eclipse the narrative, not let the viewer lose sight of the fact that Veronica's POV has been defined by the things that have happened to her, which are NOT universally applicable and nor the universal truth. Further, that leads to disregarding the fact that Veronica is, and has always been, an unreliable narrator, BECAUSE this show has the supreme ability to detach itself from her when need be, it gives Veronica the space to be wrong, the space to be selfish, the space to be constrained/limited by her environment, the space to be judgmental, the space to make mistakes and face consequences, and I think that is- or definitely should be- one of the hallmarks of a feminist narrative- sass and kickass, as glorious as it is, alone does not make feminism; it's a fully realized, beautifully developed, imperfect character that does. There have so often been times when Veronica (and this was in S3, which I too agree is the least developed of the lot, but also external, network-related circumstances added to that), saddled with trust issues because of all that has personally happened to her, has rolled her eyes at some poor girl who thinks her boyfriend is in some trouble when he doesn't meet her when he was supposed to, while clearly- to Veronica- he's deliberately avoiding the girl and then, it turns out, that the guy actually WAS in trouble, because the most cynical view and the one most geared towards avoiding disappointment is not necessarily correct? Which is why, just because VERONICA uses an addiction metaphor to explain her return does not necessarily make it true? Veronica is not addicted to Logan or the rush of adrenalin- as in, yeah, she might be, but that's the surface- Veronica has always been addicted to justice, even when it's better to let things alone, even when the price is too high, even when she's actually wrong in her assessment of what is 'just'. She didn't stay only for Logan, she stayed because there's something rotten in the state of Neptune and she can't see that and do nothing. That's what makes her Veronica Mars.

Oh, and in this regard, I then came across a v. interesting interview with Rob, which I think is enlightening (and honestly, I LOVE how clear-eyed the show is about Veronica.) and adds to the point about Veronica's POV Veronica Mars' POV

The end of the movie raises another question: Veronica sees herself as a reformer, but is she really so different from the cops she looks down on? Her training as a private investigator has made her awfully comfortable breaking into houses, spying on the people she suspects, and threatening to expose people who have done the wrong thing.

“I don’t know if Veronica will ever have a self-reflective moment about the lengths she goes to in her quest for justice or vengeance. It’s the part of her I like writing,” Thomas says. “It’s a slippery slope, I know. I’m certainly on the political left, but I do think of Veronica sometimes when I think of the Obama administration. I voted for the guy. I like him. I catch myself having faith that warrantless wiretapping or drone strikes are all done with our best interests at heart. I have to force myself to remember it won’t always be someone I trust sitting in that office.”

“Veronica Mars” ends on a triumphant note, with Veronica determined to clean up the home town she ultimately can’t leave behind. But there’s a real note of uncertainty there, too.

“Dad always said this town could wreck a person,” Veronica reflects sadly, musing on Weevil’s fate. “It’s what happens when you’re playing a rigged game.” But however much Veronica sees herself as capable of resisting the town’s traps and the corrupting effect of taking power, Thomas acknowledges that his beloved heroine is walking a fine line. “I show cops casually tasing people in order to show that these cops are not worthy of our respect; Veronica is, of course, pretty cavalier about tasing people,” he acknowledges. “I recognize the hypocrisy in that.” And the risks, as well.
upupa_epops: [vm] Veronica faceupupa_epops on March 25th, 2014 10:14 am (UTC)
I agree with your everything, basically. Saying that the VMars movie is "antifeminist" somehow... Yeah. It is, if you use a very narrow definition of feminism.

(I'm sorry this isn't a very intelligent comment, but I honestly have nothing to add to what you said.)

ETA: Also, you should write ALL THE FIC, and I feel super bad that I haven't read it yet :(. I'm so behind on reading! But I'm superstitously afraid to read VMars fic until I've finished writing the one I'm working on now.

Edited at 2014-03-25 10:16 am (UTC)
youcallitwinter: the abc of growing up.youcallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 05:10 pm (UTC)
YES, like what even is 'antifeminist' anyway; that Veronica coming back for Logan (...who may end up on death row, like) is Not What Young Women Should Be Doing? While all throughout it's pretty clear that it's the Figuring Things Out that's kinda keeping V going and not that Logan's at the end of it. She would have probably done the same for anyone, not even kidding.

OMG, I NEED TO STOP WRITING ALL THE FIC. I think I'm done for a while now and you don't need to feel bad at all, I have yet to read so much too, including your newest!!
upupa_epops: [vm] Veronica faceupupa_epops on March 25th, 2014 05:49 pm (UTC)
Apparently some people missed the memo that second wave is over, and we do intersectionality now? Veronica Mars has always been about both gender and class, and it's impossible to understand the gender of it unless you also take class into account.

YOU NEED TO WRITE ALL THE FIC ALWAYS OMG. And my newest is a monster that isn't even fully done yet :(.
youcallitwinter: keep the streets empty for meyoucallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 07:02 pm (UTC)
And I LOVE how nuanced it is; it has its faults and its politics and its flaws, but at least it tries. Like we've seen rich, white men go scot free for their crimes in Neptune tons of times, but we've see the other side too, Logan (as a rich, white male) getting beaten nearly to death or his burned down for a crime that he didn't commit, but because the anger at his acquittal was the breaking point, since so many of 'his kind' DID get acquitted as well for crimes they DID commit. It's fascinating, truly. As is the angle about people wanting placeholders for issues instead of wanting to find the real person.

Florencia: Reading (Damon)florencia7 on March 25th, 2014 11:08 am (UTC)
”One of the mistakes (and it's not here alone, it's reviews in a lot of other places) is the conflation of Veronica's POV with the show/movie.”

I'm kind of shocked, tbh, how often this happens in case of many books/shows/movies. Because... is it really possible to forget that the 1st person narration is ALWAYS unreliable? And isn't every story ALWAYS based on the combination/juxtaposition/antinomy of 3rd person narration and 1st person narration(s)?? There is nothing as frustrating as reading ~analyses in which conclusions are drawn from what the characters thinks or say as if their thoughts and feelings were absolute truths. Isn't the beauty of the narrative hidden in the fact that what characters think CLASHES with the truth? (If there even is such a thing as absolute truth to begin with, but that's another story lol)

That was amazing to read. I love love love LOVE your metas ♥ ♥ ♥
youcallitwinter: but I keep them in a box under my bedyoucallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 05:14 pm (UTC)
E X A C T L Y. Like, I know there are some fictional works where the authors are so enamoured of their own creations and identify so strongly with them that it's obvious that there's a huge disconnect between what you see and what you're clearly meant to see. But in most good narratives, there's a distance; and in that case where the characters' words are taking at face value, it's just super frustrating, because judging the characters on basis of something that is clearly their perspective divorced from that of the text they exist in seems so pointless. The characters are NOWHERE close to being The Absolute Voice of Truth, they're necessarily limited and it's not necessary that the way they see something is the way it's being presented at all!

Thank you so much! <3333
emma: oh i never know you from the sunhoratios on March 25th, 2014 04:50 pm (UTC)
You’ve written eight fics? DUDE THAT’S FUCKING AWESOME. I am now extremely grateful to this movie that I haven’t even seen because it’s gotten your ficish juices flowing. YES. Your fic is my favourite thing, ect. ect. Now I’m going to go read it.

I will also tentatively mention that I agree with your above rant, though I can’t be sure because obvs. I’m yet to see the film. However, just dubbing a character as Not Feminist Enough is more often than not problematic. The movie is a legit bit of fanservice (that’s what fans paid for so ofc. it’s right that it should be), and I can understand the frustration of somebody invested in the character of Veronica but not in the movie’s OTP, but still, uhhhhmmm… declaring a character is antifeminist because she threw her career away for a boy is just, NO. Shut up.
youcallitwinter: the ones that come easy.youcallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 05:24 pm (UTC)
DUDE, I HAVE WELL AND TRULY LOST IT. Like, I legit wrote some total 20,000 words in total and I don't even know what is wrong with me. YOU ARE MUCH TOO KIND ETC.

Yesss, the Not Feminist Enough thing really got to me. Also, because there's a lot of issues where you can talk about the failure of vmars in feminist terms (Madison Sinclair's arc definitely) but to say that the antifeminist part is exactly what makes Veronica Veronica? Like, I think reading it through an OTP-lens or anti-OTP-lens like this person does is limited because OTP aside, I don't see how someone can be invested in Veronica's character and then not see that the whole plot is centered around her character, and who she is, boy or no boy. I can understand feeling protective of a favorite like "nooooo, get out of this hell-hole and build a good life" as people who love her, like Keith, are bound to feel, but to term that 'feminism' seems a bit much.

Heh, the movie's def fanservicey in some ways, but yeah, I too find it hard to blame them. Besides I actually prefer it this way; getting to see everyone even though there's no point to them, than otherwise getting a really great movie without the callbacks and referentiality and meta.
emma: a bitch can't get a dollar outta mehoratios on March 25th, 2014 06:30 pm (UTC)
WRONG? Dude, nothing is wrong! That is actually amazing, I envy that!

Hmmm… IDK, I think I perhaps have more sympathy with the argument in that article than you do. (Though, I haven’t seen the movie, bleugh.) Like, I do agree with the author’s take on why the show deteriorated after the first season, though of course I acknowledge it’s a contested point. In terms of shipping, it’s frustrating when you’re invested in one half of an OTP. So, like, Elena shippers who hate Stefan were well frustrated for the first two, even three, years or so on TVD, thinking he was holding her back. Same goes for Caroline stans like 12 who love Caroline but cry over her relationship with Klaus? And it holds true even if you genderbend it. I have same Jaime stans resent Cersei like woah. I sympathise with all scenarios, despite shipping Elena/Stefan and being ambivalent towards Caroline/Klaus (also I used to ship Cersei/Jaime, but, uhmmm… it cooled once their passion for each other cooled, tbh). If what you want for a character, whether that is a shot at happiness or whether it’s for them to explore a certain part of themselves, whether that’s knighthood and gallantry or sexy darkness, is being constrained by a ship, that’s bleughhh. And I don’t see why that wouldn’t be the case for a non LoVe shipper? I do take your point about the plot being centred around her character and the town of Neptune, but that’s probably hard to see when your NOTP is getting in the way? Lulz. Especially when all the hype about the movie is to do with the ship?

Where I agree with you absolutely is that slating a female character for Not Being Feminist Enough is outrageous, especially when the movie is called Veronica Mars and is ABOUT Veronica Mars, a female character, and thus has a pretty awesome headstart over most Hollywood movies (lbr). Ranking women, albeit fictional women, in terms of their !!!!FEMINISM is gross as shit, liiiike. Of course I agree that the whole Straw Feminist Plot they had going on in S3 was horrible, but there isn’t anything about Veronica, or tbh any female character, that’s essentially unfeminist. Come on, like, for fuck’s sake!

LOL I know it will be fanservicey. But I’m still here for it. I’ll watch it when a decent screener comes out! i can’t wait to see everyone ALL GROWN UP. (LMAO).

Edited at 2014-03-25 06:31 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinteryoucallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 06:55 pm (UTC)
Haha, you should def not envy that considering I did it at the expense of eating, and sleeping and my education :P

I get what you mean, and tbh I ship Veronica/Logan hardcore, so it's not like I'm unbiased there AT ALL. There are some ships where I can be all 'live and let live' but Logan and Veronica (individually and together) are not those characters or that ship, I always have a need to go; NO THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE YOU'RE WRONG.

But, idk, maybe it's that I def don't think the shipping was any reason for deterioration (like, they were barely together at all in S2 and the original ending planned for the show if it got cancelled after S2 was Veronica going for Duncan at the end, and the show was working along those lines.) I can understand feeling like Logan's a burden or holding Veronica back etc., what got me riled was the idea that it makes Veronica less of a feminist icon because she chose the wrong guy and gave up her life or whatever. And, in the matter of what you said about people wanting something for their faves, I'm so ????? at what they want for Veronica (which Logan is apparently keeping her back from), a high paying corporate job making frivolous lawsuits for big corporations disappear. That seems so...fundamentally inexplicable to me. I can understand "I HATE VERONICA AND LOGAN AND GOD IT'S BORING AND STUPID AND THEY'RE HORRIBLE FOR EACH OTHER AND WHY DOES IT EXIST" but Veronica Mars is no longer a feminist narrative because Logan Echolls? Like.

I agree with the hype too (although, again, considering the movie was sold on them and a large percentage of people actually paid for their ship, so I can understand annoyance) but I don't like the academization of it into something it's not. IDK, you should watch the movie and then tell me how you feel, because I didn't feel at all that Logan had anything (or at least more than like five per cent) to do with any of V's choices :s

youcallitwinteryoucallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 11:05 pm (UTC)
(Also, I am not on Ep 10 of S5 of TGW and I have never shipped Will/Alicia harder in my life than I do now. I have, in fact, never shipped them before now and their S5 is killing me with shippy feelings. Let's face it, I'm screwed up.)
Éléonore: change your clothes to tuxedosvergoldung on March 25th, 2014 06:51 pm (UTC)
clapping in real life

so i still haven't seen the movie and prob wont lbr but i agree so hard with everything you say regardless

preach that shit
youcallitwinter: some say the world will.youcallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 07:04 pm (UTC)
i am much gladness at your agreement, chingu

you should though, otpppppppp

Éléonore: steady diet of soda pop and ritalinvergoldung on March 25th, 2014 07:07 pm (UTC)
alex told me that it was not worth it if i didn't catch up with the rest of season 3 first and since i'm too distracted for that...

btw i'm have two eps of full house thai left, so now would be the time for you to start crying about me/9e2o again. js. except if there is another show on the list now?
youcallitwinter: stranger than your sympathy.youcallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 07:10 pm (UTC)
alex is correct, though lots of people apparently saw it w/o knowing a thing and liked it.

NO, NO, NO OTHER SHOW. 9E2O BEFORE ALL ELSE OKAY. Although, I have to say, I adored I Need Romance, 2012 as well. But 9E2O is the show of my heart, there are no words for how much I love it, honestly.
Éléonorevergoldung on March 25th, 2014 07:12 pm (UTC)
lol now that you've confirmed it, i'm definitly not watching it, sorry everybody

GOOD GOOD. so do you know where i watch it? #greedy
youcallitwinter: and words are all i have.youcallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 07:13 pm (UTC)
i am flailing enough for everybody in existence honestly.

I'M NOT SURE, BUT SHOULDN'T THE USUAL SUSPECTS WORK? Gooddrama, for instance, probably has it?
Éléonore: dans cette ombrevergoldung on March 25th, 2014 07:21 pm (UTC)
ok ok i will go look for it. let's hope that i dont get distracted on the way ;)
youcallitwinter: repeated image of the lovers destroyedyoucallitwinter on March 25th, 2014 07:42 pm (UTC)
u r evil is what u r. let's hope i don't get distracted from thai full house either :P
ever_neutral: [vm] logan + veronica --> historyever_neutral on March 26th, 2014 05:45 am (UTC)
lol WTAF is that article. That blogger is everything we don’t need in “feminism” (read: basic af White Feminism). I hope they lose their job tbh.


P.S. Just saw your comment about S5 Alicia/Will. I FEEL DATZ NGL, although I’ve always shipped them, THE WRONG!SHIP FEELS THEY ARE OVERWHELMING. (BUT ALSO I AM TEN MILLION YEARS BEHIND SO SAY NOTHING.)
youcallitwinter: measured my life in coffee spoons.youcallitwinter on March 26th, 2014 02:53 pm (UTC)
The movie is a story about how Veronica Mars, Feminist Role Model, threw away her career for a boy--a sharp departure from the initial feminism of the series

ughhhh, I cannot even with this. Like, Veronica Mars is in no way obligated to be your Feminist Role Model jfc. (Also, I feel like every time this argument is used, the 'feminism' is contained to Veronica being 'sharp-witted' and 'kickass' and not 'allowing herself to be a victim' and 'not needing anyone' which is such anti-feminist bs.) And I don't see how anyone could actually have SEEN the movie and say that Veronica threw her career over for a boy. That's just...really, really terrible comprehension skills. :s


PS. I AM ALSO FAR BEHIND TBH, although I'm totally gaining ground. I used to ship Alicia/Will far back in the day, REALLY far back, but Kalinda/Cary's always been the only ship I was really invested in. Now, though, in S5, I'm apparently shipping A/W super hard. Like. WRONG!SHIP FEELS ALL OVER THE PLACE.
Naomi: Veronica Mars by _jems_frelling_tralk on March 26th, 2014 10:30 pm (UTC)
Beautiful video!

And yeah if anything it was Keith's dream for Veronica to get out and find a nice safe job, understandably so from a fathers POV of course, but it's against everything that Veronica in the show ever stood for and it was never shown to be something that she desired. During the show she frequently mentions how much she enjoys the investigation work and feels that it is her calling. It seems to be supremely missing the point to decide that Logan was the basis of Veronica's choice when it was actually consistent with everything that the show has ever told us about her, in what world should the movie have ended on Veronica returning to a nice safe life of being a lawyer and working for a big corporation lol, the entire set-up was clearly there to get Veronica back to her rightful place of fighting the system, not working for it

I do think the addiction metaphor was hammered home a little too much considering that Logan was hardly still a ~bad boy~ choice, but I guess that it made sense for the unreliable narrator that Veronica has always been, it seems to be what threw the author of the piece off though and made her decide that the movie was actually telling us that Veronica was basing all of her choices on an addiction to a guy
youcallitwinter: all we know is distanceyoucallitwinter on March 27th, 2014 06:21 pm (UTC)
I loved the intercutting of the epic speech!!

UM. Y E S TO EVERYTHING? I think it's v. realistic that Keith wants the good life for her, because, honestly, what parent wouldn't. And it's not Keith alone, I'm fairly sure everyone who loves Veronica would probably want that for her. But it's ridiculously clear, always, that that is NOT what Veronica wants for herself? I thought a particularly telling character-moment was when she was at the after-party with Piz, Mac and Wallace, and though she hasn't seen her best friends in years, almost 90% of her is concentrated on finding the best way of getting away and interviewing the suspects. That moment, in itself, clearly has nothing to do with Logan, this is who Veronica is and who she can't help being. And it's not like this aspect of her has always endeared her to Logan either- like the time she was trying to find the Hearst rapist and nearly got herself drugged and raped and he told her to let go of it- but Logan breaking up with her also didn't stop her. This has always fundamentally been Veronica's character. And chalking is down to Logan is just...supremely missing the point imo.

Also, someone sent this link that said that Logan asked for Veronica's help as a lawyer and not as a P.I. and I had a moment of oh my god, because I never even realized it, but that's absolutely correct? I love that, honestly, I LOVE that he acknowledged her as the person he thinks she now is, and that he's fully supportive of her decision and there's no moment of "but are you sure that is what you really want" because he knows he hasn't seen her in nine years and she doesn't always have to be the teenager in his head, making the same choices over again, as if she can't change. I think being unconditionally respectful of her choice and immediately telling her that he "envies opposing counsel" is something that just really worked for me. That's real growth (both character, and relationship) right there.

Yeah, the addiction metaphor was really sold hard, lmao, but again, like you said, it's all Veronica's voiceovers; it's how Veronica justifies it to herself and that's understandable, and it doesn't have to be the ~absolute truth. I think Logan as the ~bad boy~ choice also added to just that- the unreliable narrator trope, because clearly Veronica, who hasn't seen him in nine years, cannot get her head completely around him now and still somewhere, secretly seems to believe that he must be the same guy deep down- I actually think that's very realistic, again. But yeah, to think that Veronica is throwing her life away because she's ~addicted to Logan is just, wow, there are no words for that.
woobloo: logan/veronicawoobloo on April 22nd, 2014 07:11 am (UTC)
(I am catching up on my LJ feed so HAIIII a month late ofc)

This is a thing of beauty, and I had to comment on it.

Because honestly- this is what alienates me from those kinds of "feminist" arguments. Like- your "feminism" isn't subject to question, dude. The idea that every woman has to be Every Woman- i.e. Perfect, or at least, always saying the Right Thing, extra Badass- this is not empowerment. Empowerment comes through representation of all women, women who are shown to be human beings, women who screw up and sometimes even completely fail, so on, so on. How they think that women are being given power when only one woman is ever written, compared to the millions upon millions of men- I just---

Honestly, I have to think it comes down to intersectionality, and the people writing these types of articles being women, but privileged in most other respects (i.e. white, or wealthy, or straight, etc) Again- feminism is about ALL women, not just the ideal woman you have in your head. (And that is the ultimate patriarchal idea anyway.)

Basically, your response has all the awesome, and you are fab.

On a happier note, I love reading those kinds of interviews. Self-awareness on the part of people intimately involved with a show=yay. I mean, I do firmly believe in a text standing on its own, so even if he HADN'T said those things, I'd still have thought them- but- they're EXPRESSLY creating a canon where its central character is coming from an inherently subjective and not always Truthful viewpoint. *is very much in love with this show*

ETA: I'm also completely done with the idea that a woman with a love interest is somehow worth less, like jeez, pull your head out of your ass. I mean, that was implied in my more general ranting above, but I figured I may as well come out and state it bluntly.

Edited at 2014-04-22 07:13 am (UTC)