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15 July 2011 @ 10:47 pm
"...or is it because you love her too?"  




I was just rewinding a couple of scenes from TVD (it sucks I haven't had time for a proper rewatch, although my cousin's visiting, and she loves it to pieces as well, so we're staying up nights discussing the hell out of everything) and I think I've just sort of changed my perspective on Damon and Stefan's bond entirely. Earlier, I wasn't much focused on it, but now it seems to remind me of everything that I love about TVD; the fact that they seems so self-aware of the show as a show. and they work on reversing common 'teen fandom' tropes and cliches. The bad guy turns good through the 'love of a woman' but has psychotic moments where he shoves his wrist into her mouth and resolves his existential crises by killing good Samaritans by the roadside. The good guy sacrifices himself for family but when the 'sacrifice' entails killing innocents in cold blood and literally feeding on them, then really, which dictionary are we using to define the terms anyway?

Family’ is probably the most obvious running trope throughout the Vampire Diaries, and I think it’s most explicitly expounded through Damon and Stefan’s relationship, simply because they’re so oblivious to the working of the family ties. It’s not as obvious as “I’ll die to save you” or whatever the other characters are all up to (except Caroline, who shares such a realistic dynamic with her mother that it's a delight to watch. And also because she's Caroline; she can’t help being awesome in every department). Although the outward snarky, more-than-slightly bitter conversations between Stefan and Damon remain the same, there is such a  distinct change in actions that there are times when I wonder whether their whole history had been panned out before the initial episodes; the rather cryptic insinuations about Damon's past by Stefan seems rather odd in the light of the revelations about his past (or his "I've always been the good brother"). Or maybe it was for shock value, to raise him that much higher, so he could fall that much harder (I'm pretty sure Julie Plec said something like that in a recent interview). 
  
In the earlier episodes, the family 'ties' seem to gag more than they binded. Their relationship, as influenced by Katherine's presence, continued in the same rut over the next century. This is made explicit by the fact that it doesn't seem as if Katherine compelled their feelings for her-- she's said as much to both, and that neither denied it seems to be something close to a confirmation since they would remember the compulsion after transition, so. Damon is projected as being antagonistic towards Stefan not because he forced him to drink blood to complete his transition or even what he considers Stefan's betrayal of Katherine, but rather because he couldn't stand the thought that Katherine could have cared enough for Stefan to want to turn him as well; he wanted to be enough for Katherine (ironic really, from later developments; he was obviously the collateral). And Stefan too “didn’t care” that he was 'stealing' the girl that his brother was in love with, because he wanted her badly enough to overlook all else. They chose their attitudes, their paths, their feelings towards each other; wherein choice is set in contrast to being compelled. (Definitely contestable)
 
Damon's introduction in the Pilot also becomes slightly confusing, because it doesn't seem to quite fit in with the kind of man he used to be, even after the transition, which always makes me think that maybe the plot was developed over a period of time, and took a different direction than initially planned, and probably the writers themselves were unaware of the development of the 1864 dynamic. But, alternately, it can also be said that Damon's resentment fermented over the century to the extent that it became all-consuming, and probably accounts for the marked difference between the Damon of 1864 and the present-time Damon. Also, he totally did not have a Lexi. D:
 
However, their initial relationship, depicted in those far-too-few moments when Katherine had newly arrived at the Estate, has a definite impact on their relationship in the real-time action of the show. For instance, I find it very fascinating that Stefan seems so insecure about Elena's love, although we all know that throughout the second season Elena has repeated endless versions of 'it will always only be Stefan' an uncountable number of times. Stefan’s insecurities are all the more intriguing at the level of the plot because it does seem as if all the women seem to prefer him, and yet he's never certain of his own standing. I genuinely think this attitude stems from his childhood relationship with Damon. The difference in their ages, Damon's stint as a Confederate soldier, not to mention his inherent magnetism probably made Stefan stay a little in awe of his older brother. In the same vein, it's not difficult to see why the jaded, cynical Katherine chose Stefan over Damon; his helpless devotion probably appealed to her more than Damon's slightly practiced air of seduction. Stefan reminded her of who she used to be (although paradoxically she exploits that very aspect of him, his innocence, Katherine finds it very hard not to break things). Stefan's awe might have translated into something else entirely over the course of time, but his reactions remain the same; he feels about Damon what analogously Caroline feels about Elena (which is amusing in so far as that Stefan is always the 'first choice', while the lack of that in Caroline's situation is exactly where her contention with her best friend lies); that somehow, for some reason, he's better. That there's something about him which will make it possible for Elena to fall in love with him, regardless of all the things he's done around/to her. And Stefan can really never rid himself of this notion. He seems to know that Elena’s attracted to Damon (which, let's face it, she is, although I really don't believe she's in love with him yet) and it's constantly reiterated through the episodes. Even Elena knows about it, which was the explicit reason for that very exhibitionist kiss in front of Damon in Bad Moon Rising
 
Even as rabidly largely a Damon/Elena shipper, I can see why Elena would choose Stefan over Damon, at least at that stage in her life. Although we can't be sure, it's possible that before the death of her parents Damon (without all the killer tendencies, obv) would have been her 'type', but with their death and change all around, she 'chooses' off-blood Stefan because he represents the kind of constancy that the passionate, volatile Damon does not. That is of course subject to change, and I do like that Damon hasn't transformed completely, and she still can't help being slightly attracted to him; adds an element of realism. Logically she shouldn't have any sort of feelings for the guy who snapped her brother's neck, practically, however...

In my opinion, the most interesting part of the whole Stefan/Elena/Damon dynamic is that conversation between Caroline and Stefan, wherein Elena'd gone to meet Katherine and Stefan asks "she's with Damon, isn't she." Because that wasn't a question at all. He states it. And more importantly, he states it not with any sort of violent/anguished reaction but with something close to resignation. In the 'it was always going to happen sooner or later. Except it happened sooner than later' sort of way. And why I found it interesting was because it didn't seem to me, at least at that moment, that he was going to 'fight' for Elena with his brother. It seemed if Elena ever "chose" Damon of her own accord, Stefan would actually just step aside and let them be. Which is why I also think that if Damon and Elena actually hook up in the next season (which I’m not sure about at all), then Stefan would not actually consider it a betrayal, in fact, he’d probably want it because he would no longer trust himself to not hurt Elena; his major objection to Damon with Elena.

From the Damon/Stefan showdowns, I'm beginning to think that the only reason Stefan would aggressively be against a D/E hook-up is because he thinks Damon has completely unpredictable reactions and is capable of hurting Elena, unintentionally or otherwise. Which is exactly the same reason Damon thinks Stefan “deserves” Elena and he doesn't (although there’s a whole other debate here about what “deserving” Elena is). In fact, throughout, Damon loves winding up Stefan about the mutual attraction between him and Elena but he’s never actively done anything to “steal” her or try to act on his feelings. His wisecracks about himself as a potential threat remain confined to Stefan, or assume almost a playful tone in his interactions with Elena ("Better. Me"). The first time, out in the field, where he tried to kiss her without knowing about the vervain necklace, probably counts as an attempt to alter the Stefan/Elena dynamic by introducing himself as a potential love-interest, but I think that was entirely about pissing Stefan off. It had nothing to do with what he felt/didn't feel about Elena; he did it, because his brother stole his girl and he was damn well going to steal his. Also, I don't think Damon ever thought Stefan was in love with Elena; he seemed to consider it some sort of odd doppelganger kink. The failed attempt at seduction/compulsion was a direct move to aggravate Stefan and live up to the promise of 'eternal misery' rather than because Damon actually had a vested interest in the act itself. The one time he did do something to potentially sway Elena's reaction towards him (the Rose confession), he immediately compelled her to forget it. The only time he actually revealed his feelings (verbally, that is, otherwise everyone and their dog knew anyway, Damon’s very open that way, as much as he’d prefer not to be, heh) was when he thought he was dying and it couldn’t affect anything anymore.

What usually comes through the Stefan/Damon interactions is their absolute inability to let go. And not just through the grand gestures like Damon going to Pearl’s house to save Stefan or Stefan ‘sacrificing’ himself in the finale, but all the little moments, where they stand up for each other, unconsciously almost.

In Miss Mystic Falls it was Damon who defended Stefan during his first bloodlust phase. He rationalized the actions for Elena, constructing Stefan as a victim—someone who had been resisting his nature since so long that he was bound to feel the effects as that much stronger. And it's important to remember that at that moment, Elena had been disillusioned; in her mind, Stefan’s uncontrollable blood-holism had placed him categorically within the ranks of Every Vampire Ever, instead of the heroic, self-denying figure that he usually presented. Damon could’ve played on it if he’d wanted, made it seem like Stefan was a hypocrite for his usual stance of outraged morality at the nature of Vampiric existence. He didn’t.

Similarly, Stefan constantly feels like Damon is a threat to his relationship, but the times he had the opportunity to influence Elena against him, he supported him instead. After Damon snapped Jeremy’s neck, it was Stefan who first suggested that the only reason he’d done it was because he’d seen the ring and knew what it was for— a justification that was proved wrong, but was a justification nonetheless. Correspondingly, although they had a major altercation after the scene in which Damon forces Elena to drink his blood, again, it was Stefan who later told her that Damon was in love with her and couldn’t bear the thought of having to live without her—a claim that, if accepted by Elena, would reflect negatively on Stefan's passivity in the matter. 
 
I really think I’m falling in love with the connection they share and the various ways they react to Elena’s relationship with the other. Which is why I genuinely think that in season three, if Damon/Elena does happen, the initiative will have to be Elena’s. Damon playing an agential role would seem rather out-of-character to me, not to mention, a little disappointing after what Stefan’s done for him. YOU KNOW WHAT, I hope this means that we’ll return to first season Damon/Elena dynamic, with a lot of snark and accidental attraction because they’ll both have to resist and it will be SO HARD. That would really be my ideal third season. :D
 
[Solely my own view, also I haven't seen most episodes since they aired, so stuff can be off]

ALSO, LOOK AT THE SHINY YOU GUYS. And more importantly, do not get dazzled by the shiny and forget to join us at [info]tvdbloodstream  kthx :D

 
 
 
Pied: [tvd] get in the carwheatear on July 15th, 2011 05:27 pm (UTC)
Great post. It is really interesting the way the brothers defend each other, isn't it? When it comes down to it, they always have each other's backs.

Which is why I genuinely think that in season three, if Damon/Elena does happen, the initiative will have to be Elena’s.
Agreed. I don't think it would work for him to make a pass at her, not after he very deliberately stepped aside. I think there's going to be a lot of resisting the inevitable from both of them.
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 05:40 pm (UTC)
YOU AND I, WE HAVE SOMETHING.

Heh, no seriously, I was covertly going through your Elena/Elijah post at work (with a lot of tab changing) and I couldn't wait to come home and go through it properly, and now I can, yes!

I shall be very disappointed if Damon tries to bring the kiss up, because honestly that just seems very OOC for who he is; he did it the first time after the Founder's Day kiss with Katherine, but that was because at that point in time Elena was "fair game" (ugh, sexist terminology, I just can't think of anything else), in the sense that she was free to make the choice, but here, with Stefan gone, they're both not free. And I just hope that the writers don't rush through the various complications to get to the actual D/E. I'm more than wiling to wait, if it gets me some delicious snarkangst first!
(no subject) - wheatear on July 15th, 2011 07:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 07:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wheatear on July 15th, 2011 07:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
brightstarmara: Damon unfbrightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 05:51 pm (UTC)
Wow! Look at you writing a meta! Have you thought about posting this at tvd_meta? I'm sure more people would love to read it!

I've always loved the relationship between these two guys, as painfull as it is to watch sometimes! I think you worded it perfectly.

A couple of seconds ago I commented to nicenicegirl that it baffles me why everybody seems to prefer Stefan (Kat, Lexi, Elena, Becky). On the surfice he seems like the nicer guy, but wouldn't anybody who spends a bit longer with these two guys see that none is BETTER than the other?
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 06:19 pm (UTC)
Shirtless!Damon icon five! :D

Haha, you know, while I was writing, I was wondering whether this was something like a meta. The truth is (fandom ignorance!) I actually have no clue what a meta is, so I can’t be sure I’m writing one, haha. But I suppose it’s something like an show-analysis of some character or relationship while looking at the show as that—a show. But I really do love their relationship, and you’re right, neither of them is better than the other, so actually it depends on your preference definitely. For instance, I think if Stefan and Damon had met Elena before the death of her parents (logistical problems aside :P) she’s have gone for Damon, because it seems like that’s the kind of girl she was—but I suppose that after her parent’s death, everything changed and she needed the kind of constancy that off-human-blood-Stefan represents instead of Damon’s passion and volatility, it made sense for who she was then, but now I’m pretty sure that can change anytime! Katherine I suppose was attracted to Stefan's helpless devotion as compared to Damon's slightly more self-aware affection. I was going to ask you who Becky is, but just remembered, the new girl, haha!
(no subject) - brightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 06:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 07:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wheatear on July 15th, 2011 07:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 08:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wheatear on July 15th, 2011 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 08:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 07:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 08:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - brightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 08:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 08:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on July 15th, 2011 08:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
sassy, classy, and a bit smart-assy: TVD: Bros. Salvatorebadboy_fangirl on July 15th, 2011 06:35 pm (UTC)
You could link this post up over at Bloodstream--you would probably get a lot of response to your thinky thoughts...

I do want to discuss one point with you that I don't see exactly as you state here, however: and that is Damon trying to steal Elena. Because he obviously had that intent (and stated it quite clearly) in 1x03 FNB--but Elena had been vervained, so he couldn't execute his mission, thus he went to poke at Stefan and ended up killing Coach Tanner.

Secondly, when Damon kissed "Elena" on the porch in 1x22, while I don't believe he was doing it to "steal" Elena (though at the beginning of the episode he does say to Stefan that he's come to the Founder's Day festival to "eat cotton candy and steal your girl"), he kissed her as Stefan says in 2x01 "Because you feel something for her!" I do believe that even though it wasn't about Stefan anymore then, he definitely didn't care if it bothered Stefan (hence him saying I kissed Elena!). So, now, given what's happened, I don't think Damon would make any moves himself, either, it will have to be Elena who does it (it makes my heart flutter to even consider the possibilities). And I do think there is a weird loyalty there, but I also think Stefan's insecurities come from the fact that HE loves Damon so much. Part of him wants what he thinks Damon feeling something for Elena could do (bring him back to his humanity), but of course he loves Elena too, so is he really THAT good that he would give her up? I think he would (at least off-the-juice Stefan), and I think he WILL. Because Stefan's #1 priority and story is about DAMON, whilest Damon's #1 priority and story is about Elena.

Not that Damon doesn't love his brother, because he obviously does; but he also has this deep, deep need to romantically love and be loved, and Elena is the one who sparked his return to his humanity. Everything about his journey is tied up in her and what he feels for her. Because what he says as he's dying is he would do all of the bad things he's ever done in his life all over again knowing it would bring her into his life, because it was all worth it to know her. *sobs*
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 15th, 2011 07:19 pm (UTC)
WELL HELLO, IT'S BEEN LONG D:

Because he obviously had that intent (and stated it quite clearly) in 1x03 FNB--but Elena had been vervained, so he couldn't execute his mission

Oh, I really should have added that in! I think you're absolutely right there, but I suppose I don't see that as 'stealing' because it was done solely for the purpose of aggravating Stefan. He didn't have a vested interest in the matter apart from the fact that Stefan apparently wanted Elena so Damon wanted to ruin that for him and hold good to his promise of eternal misery. He might've been interested in Elena, but I don't think his attempt at seduction was for that purpose; it wasn't for Elena, it was for Stefan. And Damon was like that, the bitter remark about how Stefan shouldn't have been saved wasn't a flashback, it was said in real-time, so there were a lot of issues there. And ironically enough, that changed just as he actually fell for Elena! It can be argued both ways, it could be for Elena, because he believes Stefan is 'better' for her which is why he doesn't make any moves or maybe for Stefan, because he wouldn't do that (actually it's probably the former). Also, I don't think Damon believed Stefan was genuinely in love with Elena, he thought it was some weird doppleganger fetish, so he probably didn't overthink his action.

Secondly, when Damon kissed "Elena" on the porch in 1x22, while I don't believe he was doing it to "steal" Elena

D: I AM SO SORRY, totally didn't realize it came out like that! I don't think that he was trying to steal her AT ALL. And especially not in that scene. In fact, it's one of my favorites because of the tenderness of that kiss on the cheek. The later kiss wasn't planned at all, it just happened in the moment, and his look of confusion is so telling, because he hadn't expected to feel so much and he didn't know how to react. That moment was just about Elena, I'm sure even the thought that she was his brother's girlfriend didn't cross his mind. What I meant was that the way he reacted after the kiss, that restrained (that scene is so fucking awesome) 'we should talk about it' wouldn't be how he would react about the second season finale kiss because he knows that if they 'talk' about it, it'll lead up to something much more.

Stefan's #1 priority and story is about DAMON, whilest Damon's #1 priority and story is about Elena.

YES. THIS. I completely agree with that! I was so going to add that, but the fact is, I really don't know how I feel about that, so I avoided it.

I know, Bloodstream looks awesome, I'll link it over! :D
(no subject) - badboy_fangirl on July 15th, 2011 08:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 08:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Arabian: Damon&Stefan02arabian on July 16th, 2011 01:38 am (UTC)
I'm going to be incredibly lame, but I'm working every day this week and am just dog tired, so I will say: THIS! ALL OF THIS! Seriously, I could have written this entire thing myself. ABSOLUTELY.


THIS!
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 08:55 pm (UTC)
Oh god, I sympathize; I'm interning for the hols, working nine hours for the first time in my life and it's killer. I really don't see how people work on a regular basis D: But I'm SO GLAD that you feel the same way!!
Myramidnightblack07 on July 16th, 2011 04:47 am (UTC)
This was an awesome read!!

I think the most poignant "brotherly love" moments for me are the more subtle ones you pointed out--ESPECIALLY the one where Stefan tried to justify Damon snapping Jeremy's neck in "The Return" by claiming that Damon only did it because he saw the right <3 when you take into account all the events that preceded that defense (Damon kissing Katherine while thinking she was Elena, his gloating about it to Stefan) that was a pretty darn awesome and brotherly thing for Stefan to to =) (all the other moments were as awesome too, but that one really stood out for me for some reason).

Which is why I genuinely think that in season three, if Damon/Elena does happen, the initiative will have to be Elena’s. Damon playing an agential role would seem rather out-of-character to me, not to mention, a little disappointing after what Stefan’s done for him. YOU KNOW WHAT, I hope this means that we’ll return to first season Damon/Elena dynamic, with a lot of snark and accidental attraction because they’ll both have to resist and it will be SO HARD. That would really be my ideal third season. :D

ALL OF THIS. I definitely don't see Damon being all "yea Stefan's out, getting into Elena's pants NOW!" not when, despite their drama, the brothers obviously love and care about each other this much (and, of course like you said, taking into account that Stefan is away).

I really hope they go back to the season 1 dynamic between Damon/Elena as well. Tbh when I rewatched mid-late season 2 I found I didn't much favor any of the grand declarations that were made by Damon (even the "I love you" in 2x08) despite initially really liking them. I think I prefer the snark and subtlety and hopefully we'll get that back next season =)
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 09:23 pm (UTC)
I know! I absolutely love those because of how incredibly subtle they are-- like, I actually didn't even notice this stuff WHILE it was happening, it was only (months!) later when I was thinking about it that it struck me! I completely agree with you that Stefan trying to defend Damon in The Return was one of their best moments because he could've stayed silent or said something about how Damon never really changed; but he didn't. And I'd completely forgotten all the action preceding it which makes Stefan's support even more incredible, thanks for pointing that out!

To someone who didn't actually witness the Kathelena/Damon kiss, it probably sounds like a very calculated move (obviously, when you see it, you're so caught up in the tenderness of the moment and how reflexive it was, that it's hard to judge it by anything but those standards) and while we, as the audience, know that Damon's gloating was a smokescreen to hide how hurt/confused he really was; to Stefan, as a character, it probably sounded like it was a deliberate attempt at making a move on Elena (something he's obviously been fearing)

I found I didn't much favor any of the grand declarations that were made by Damon

Honestly, it's a bit like-- I don't know-- if I'd read a fic with some of the dialogues that Damon's said this season, I would've dismissed it as OOC and stopped reading. And just because its on the show doesn't make it less odd for me, because seriously, that is not my conception of Damon as a character. I think his mode of dealing with unrequited love would be endless snark and obvious flirting, completed with angsty/tender moments that he'd hate and try to avoid and wouldn't be able to. More about the way he looks at her and does things without realizing (like giving her the device in Isobel or sitting with her outside Stefan's 'jail' in Miss Mystic Falls), not the completely self-aware character who feels it necessary to say everything he's feeling.

They practically chaged the foundation for why I ship them mid-second season, not that I don't ship them just as hard but everytime I watch their earlier scenes (or even some of S2), I actually physically ache at how good the dynamic was- awkward, tender, sexy, bitter, snarky, humorous, angst-ridden and everything in between. It was so much more show than tell like it is now D:
(no subject) - midnightblack07 on July 16th, 2011 10:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 19th, 2011 06:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - midnightblack07 on July 19th, 2011 06:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
ever_neutral: tvd ~ my manic and iever_neutral on July 16th, 2011 06:21 am (UTC)
FLAWLESS POST.

I... weirdly don't have much to add, but definitely 100% word to Stefan having a surprising sense of inferiority re: Damon. Just because Stefan considers himself the GOOD brother doesn't mean he sees himself as the BETTER brother. And if he weren't The Good Brother, what's to stop Elena from preferring Damon?

I actually think Stefan is wrong on that score--I think Elena does love him for who he is (or, at least, his human side), and not just in relation to Damon. I doubt Elena will STOP loving Stefan because he's fallen off the wagon again. HOWEVER, the reason she chooses to be WITH him is because he "made a choice to be good"--therefore, her love for him is justified. Likewise, the reason Elena chooses NOT to be with Damon is because any romantic feelings she has for him cannot be justified. He's done so much evil (and unlike Stefan, he's committed evil while she's known him); he snapped her brother's neck; he abused Caroline, etc. Elena cannot reconcile her love (whatever kind of love that is) for him with her intellectual knowledge of him. But at some point, she's gonna have to reconcile herself to the fact that what she feels is IRRATIONAL, and there's nothing she can do about it. (I think she already made a bit of a breakthrough in the finale, with "I like you now; just the way you are." It took him dying for her to realize the truth of that, a truth that she will probably DENY now the moment has passed.) Same applies to Stefan, though admittedly I'm not as ~familiar with how Elena sees Stefan. That may be the one thing about Elena I do not really understand at all.

I will say that I'm not sure if I agree with your suggestion that Damon is the kind of guy Elena might have chosen before her parents' death? I mean, Matt is not really a Bad Boy. Truthfully, I don't really think Elena returned Matt's love (at least, not in the same way), but I do think she was happy with him because he's a good guy. (Most of the time, anyway.) So, I actually feel like The Good Guy IS Elena's usual type? But she also has that passionate, headstrong side that those Good Guys don't necessarily share, and which she might even dislike about herself. I mean, she blames herself for her parents' deaths because her getting drunk and them having to come take care of her were what led to the accident. So, I think Elena might possibly associate "losing control/behaving irresponsibly" with "DISASTER". I mean, there's a reason that the only time we saw her ~losing control that way was when she was in Georgia with DAMON. I don't see her behaving that way with the Good Guys in her life. I suspect Elena goes for the Good Guys because they're who she thinks she SHOULD want, in order to avoid disaster or something. Hence, why she relies on the belief that Stefan is ultimately a good guy, i.e. behaves well. She associates him with the idea of COMFORT, not disaster. This is the polar opposite of what Damon represents to her.

um. so. apparently I had some things to say after all. FORGIVE MY WORD-VOMIT, lol. YOUR META MADE ME DO IT.
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 09:59 pm (UTC)
I LIKE YOUR VERSION OF NOT HAVING ANYTHING TO SAY.

"I actually think Stefan is wrong on that score".

WORD. As a Damon/Elena shipper for the most part, I suppose I tend to view their interactions with rose-tinted shipper glasses (although the show totally plays up to it, so I discount the blame partially :P) but seriously some of the Delena-fan reactions against Stefan/Elena have been fairly odd and I keep thinking ‘are we even watching the same show?!’ My basic problem with S/E (although it’s significantly reduced in the past few months) Is that I think they’re rather boring. They’re sweet and adorable and a real-life relationship like that would probably be incredible, but on the screen I like my couples with a dash of conflicts, angst, unrequited love and all that jazz. And not conflicts like My Girlfriend Keeps Trying To Get Herself Killed, but more the Fuck, I’m In Love With My Brother’s Girlfriend. It’s a personal opinion of course, but it just makes for a much better TV viewing experience. Seriously, they were glorious the first season and beginning second!

But apart from all that, it’s not like I can’t see that Elena is COMPLETELY in love with Stefan. I know she’s attracted to Damon and cares deeply for him, as much as she’d rather not; but does she feel anything beyond that? I couldn’t possibly say. In fact I couldn’t even say with absolute surety what Damon feels for Elena; considering that he was ready to “forget everything” and go back to Katherine as later as The Return, and she was the woman he was insanely in love with for a hundred and forty odd years— is it that easy to let go, even after all the hurtful revelations? Again, I couldn’t say. I haven’t had a single indicator that Elena ‘loves’ Damon anywhere near her affection for Stefan and that, as you rightly pointed out, is also linked to the fact that she feels she can justify her attraction to Stefan in a way she can definitely never fully do for Damon. Stefan/Elena might not be what I want, or what I think should happen, but clearly that’s the show till now!

The whole of the next section was brilliant analysis! I’d completely forgotten about Matt being Elena’s boyfriend D: So you’re absolutely right, Elena has probably remained a little on the side of the good guys
And I love that you pointed out that part about how she blames herself for her parents’ death, BECAUSE THAT IS PROBABLY THE TRUEST THING EVER. And it obviously reflects in her reaction to Damon; he’s unpredictable in a way that off-human-blood Stefan isn’t. And his unpredictability tends to result in near disasters and Elena needs security after all that’s been happening around her, to her. I mean, it’s genuinely hard to say; would Damon be a different person if he and Elena got together right now? Would he stop doing all the things he has a tendency to do? Give up all the spectacular ways he finds to mess up? There is absolutely no way of knowing because Damon, as much as his journey back to humanity is linked to Elena, is a character in his own right with separate thoughts and actions and it’s rather impossible to change completely because of someone.

BET YOU FEEL SORRY FOR APOLOGIZING ABOUT YOUR WORD-VOMIT NOW.
(no subject) - ever_neutral on July 17th, 2011 04:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on July 19th, 2011 05:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
NEVER SHUT UP. - ever_neutral on July 19th, 2011 07:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
DON'T ENCOURAGE ME. - youcallitwinter on July 19th, 2011 08:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: DON'T ENCOURAGE ME. - ever_neutral on July 19th, 2011 09:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: DON'T ENCOURAGE ME. - youcallitwinter on July 20th, 2011 10:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: DON'T ENCOURAGE ME. - ever_neutral on July 20th, 2011 01:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: DON'T ENCOURAGE ME. - youcallitwinter on July 20th, 2011 06:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Florencia: Candiceflorencia7 on July 16th, 2011 06:11 pm (UTC)
Utterly awesome post, as always! ♥

I'm really interested in what season 3 will do with Stefan and Damon in terms of their relations.
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 08:47 pm (UTC)
I'm anticipating that so much, because I can't wait to see how everyone handles themselves with Stefan gone! Heh, Paul's so excited to play ripper!Stefan and Ian's terrified Damon's going to transform into Stefan II xD Thanks bb! <3
Ellen Smithee: Damon/Stefan 2ellensmithee on July 16th, 2011 07:44 pm (UTC)
While ruminating over a fic, I've been kind of obsessing about these inconsistencies over the past few days, and you've really nailed it (and provided a few plausible reasons):

Damon's introduction in the Pilot also becomes slightly confusing, because it doesn't seem to quite fit in with the kind of man he used to be, even after the transition, which always makes me think that maybe the plot was developed over a period of time, and took a different direction than initially planned, and probably the writers themselves were unaware of the development of the 1864 dynamic. But, alternately, it can also be said that Damon's resentment fermented over the century to the extent that it became all-consuming, and probably accounts for the marked difference between the Damon of 1864 and the present-time Damon.
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 16th, 2011 08:43 pm (UTC)
It is rather strange- especially when you go through the beginning episodes and find that it's usually Stefan who says cryptic things to Damon about his past which genuinely makes no sense in light of the later developments! So, I suppose they decided to change it or something? Haha, we shall never know, alas. :)
(no subject) - ellensmithee on July 16th, 2011 08:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 19th, 2011 06:00 am (UTC)
I just suddenly went from teams ‘Go Damon’ and ‘Stefan needs a 2/3rd reduction in screen time’ to TEAM SALVATORE BROTHERS, RAH RAH. Heh, that’s what I love about this show; the more I reflect on it, the more it changes my hard-set opinions of the characters.

In this case it's Stefan the untrusty narrator and cover up king.

You know, the idea of Stefan as an unreliable narrator never really occurred to me, that’s a very good point! I haven’t thought about it till now, but you’re right, Stefan has this tendency not to reveal something personal unless he is absolutely unable to avoid it. Like the time Elena discovered the other Gilbert Journals and found out about Stefan’s ‘ripper’ past. Till then, it had only been cryptically hinted at, but the extent was revealed only at that point. But you’re also right in the ‘whitewashing’, he does tend to do that. I think a majority of it is because he’s horrified by his past exploits in a way that Damon isn’t. I’m sure Damon’s done a fair bit of killing, possibly a lot (although definitely not to the extent that Stefan has) but he considers it ‘natural’ and he feels no guilt for it (that is exactly what changes after he falls in love with Elena, he begins to feel something close to guilt), while Stefan goes to the other extreme; he’s so ashamed, he practices brutal abstinence (like he tells Elena, he has to fight it everyday, and it apparently never gets better).

I think the show constructed Stefan and Damon as ‘good’ and ‘bad’ very clearly, so it’s a relief that they’ve navigating the boundaries a little now. But I loved that Stefan gave up everything for Damon, even his own humanity. And that Damon is always first with him, more so than even Elena, I think. That’s why I love their relationship; they can’t stand each other (allegedly) but they can’t seem to be able to live apart either. That’s pretty much universal familyhood right there!

If he finds out about Damon/Elena, his mood swings may get the better of him, and there may be a parallel to Jeremy's neck breaking incident.

Ooh, Stefan unable to overcome his bloodlust and going off the deep end because of Elena and Damon’s growing relationship is such an interesting possibility. I wonder if they’ll go that way!

And I absolutely agree on Stefan’s soreness about Damon’s transition. Damon’s absolute refusal to do it, even though it was revealed in this season’s finale that he’d been begging Katherine since ages to turn him, is so odd. It probably means that he doesn’t love Stefan as much, which makes me a little sad D: But then I suppose he got his comeuppance since Katherine had apparently only always loved Stefan. :s

THIS SHOW; SO MANY TRIANGLES. Klaus/Katherine/Elijah, Damon/Katherine/Stefan, Damon/Elena/Stefan, Matt/Caroline/Tyler, Luka/Bonnie/Jeremy, Jeremy/Vicki/Tyler, Vicki’s memory/Jeremy/Anna, Jenna/Alaric/Isobel’s!memory, and now apparently Some Random Girl/Tyler/Caroline. WHAT EVEN?

I really want to see Damon/Caroline/Stefan though
(Deleted comment)
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 20th, 2011 10:25 am (UTC)
Stefan's one of those chararcters who seems great with certain characters because they bring out different facets of his personality

CAROLINE. I love her because not only is she awesome herself, she makes everyone around her awesome. Stefan's interactions with her were the time I genuinely fell in love with him. Like that particular scene in Daddy Issues when he brings Elena and Bonnie over to keep her company, it just makes me tear up a little each time because that was an absolutely wonderful thing to do. Not to mention she reminds him of Lexi, and he needs a Lexi.

Your Salvatore Brother analysis is really good! I haven't thought about it like that at all; they might 'hate' each other but they never leave. All those times that Stefan said he wanted to kill Damon and the one time when Damon would've actually died, he saves him instead. And in a way that would probably be more against his principles than dying. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have minded getting killed as much as he's going to hate who he's going to become (well once he reverts back to who he was, that is, and god knows when that'll happen!)

Either way the show stresse to Stefan it will always be Damon, and for Damon "it always comes down to the love of a woman" (Katherine, Elena)

Very well put again! Although I still don't know how I feel about that as well, it seems Damon gets led by women pretty easily. He was in love with Katherine a hundred and forty something odd years AFTER her compulsion must have worn off in the transition and he must have seen her for the manipulative bitch she really was. But he was still willing to be with her as recent as The Return, he's really vulnerable in a way that Stefan isn't. But I love that about his character and I would hate for that to change.

Then I wouldn't mind Damon/Elena/Stefan/Caroline together for eternity with visits from "uncle" Elijah.

LISTEN. THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN. THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN MORE THAN ANYTHING IN THE WORLD NEEDS TO HAPPEN. Also, someone needs to write this fic asap.

swirlsofblueswirlsofblue on July 20th, 2011 02:25 pm (UTC)
This is such an incredibly awesome analysis, thanks for writing :).
youcallitwinter: be your teenage dream tonightyoucallitwinter on July 20th, 2011 05:37 pm (UTC)
Thanks so much! So glad it worked for you :D