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08 October 2011 @ 05:56 pm
In Defence of Caroline Forbes (3x04)  

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr6vofOENZ1qbta55o1_500.jpg

I’m actually genuinely surprised by the reactions to Caroline this episode. All through the episode, I was constantly thinking, MY GIRL IS SUCH A BAMF, and I actually came online expecting to see odes in her praises and instead so many people disliked her for the way she talked about Damon this episode and it just made me go DDDDD: Maybe it's because I stan Caroline as hard as most people stan Damon that I seem to see it quite a different way, lol.
 
1. Caroline seemed fine with him in the season premiere.
 
wearerobinhood:<br /><br /><br />Caroline: “Hey, you missed the cake!”<br />

This is true. I’m pretty sure I spent half my life squeeing over the fact that she threw a party at his house and they even came in the same frame for about three seconds (because, on top of all the issues, I actually even ship them a lot).
 
But I think it's because I've been thinking the exact opposite all this while; that Ric and Caroline seemed okay with Damon too fast Caroline's 'you suck' was epic but did it cover everything that had happened to her? According to me, it didn't, at all. Neither did the show ever address everything that Damon ever did to Alaric before commencing on their epic bromance.
 
In my opinion it's so realistic that they'd still hold onto some of the resentment; which wouldn't come out in their daily interactions but exists nonetheless. They don’t overreact with respect to themselves because they're almost okay with him, but this underlying bitterness WOULD come out when they're trying to protect someone they love; Elena.
 
Caroline knows better than anybody what Damon’s capable of. And she knows he’s changed, he’s ‘different’, but she still wants Elena to be aware of what she’s getting into. Because if anyone knows what it means to build this fantasy around someone’s head that they’re never going to live up to, it’s Caroline. She can see that Elena’s attracted to Damon and that she’s trying to justify that attraction by making Damon into Stefan, or using him as a Stefan-replacement or trying to project that he’s completely overcome his vampire nature. And as her friend, it’s her duty to do this. And it’s not like it’s a huge step, that her opinion will completely change Elena’s or anything, it’s just something she feels the need to say so she says it.


2. “Probably off somewhere doing bad things to good people.”

 tvdgifs:<br /><br />Elena: No but if I am gonna be with Stefan, then I have to learn to tolerate Damon. It’s not like I can kill him.Bonnie: There’s a thought.Caroline: Mm, I’ll help.<br />1.12 | Unpleasantville<br />

I actually laughed at this because bitchy!Caroline is my absolute favorite. :D
 
I can see why it would seem like she’s completely negating any character development he might have had, but that’s not how I read it AT ALL. It’s just something she said when she wasn’t in a very good mood with him, nothing more nothing less. It’s like someone saying “Stefan is off torturing all the cute, fluffy bunnies in the neighborhood.” It’s not like she’s going to qualify her statement when she’s already mad at the turn of events and Elena’s feelings; that would be ridiculous. It’s like, ‘I’m mad at you, and therefore you suck, even if you’re helping curb global warming.’ SHE’S A TEENAGE GIRL, SHE HAS MOOD-SWINGS. I don’t remember anyone going crazy when Damon said “Vampire Barbie asked if she could handle it and I said why not? I figure if she screwed up he'd bite her and then I’ll be rid of two of my problems.” It’s just something you say, it doesn’t HAVE to mean anything deeper.
 
And it’s Caroline. She constantly has her foot in her mouth; she says all the wrong things with the best of intentions. If we were just skimming the surface, nobody would’ve ever got past “Oh, it's just ‘cause her parents died, yeah, I mean she's just totally going through a blah phase, she used to be way more fun... And, I say that with complete sensitivity.”


3. Damon’s saved her life many times.

 
source

And here, I think the timeline becomes important; because as far as I know, they haven't even completed a year since the Salvatores came to Mystic Falls (Stefan's birthday to Elena's birthday). So, obviously everything that's happened to Caroline via Damon (however far in the viewer's memory) is recent for her. This was the same bit of wonderful continuity that the show played around with when Matt found out about Caroline’s vampirism. His first thought was about Vicki, because for him it’s only been (I don’t even know) some months? While, after all that had happened in the show, nobody particularly cared about that arc anymore. So, to say that Caroline should forget about all the times Damon abused her and belittled her and terrified her because he’s saved her life is rather unfair. Also, considering that he’s actively tried to kill her twice as well. BOTH things have happened within the span of a few months. And she’s not constantly trying to murder him for what he did to her, so obviously she’s grateful. But she doesn’t have to like him or think well of him for that.
 
As for saving her life; he did it for Elena both the times. It’s not something he did out of the pure goodness of his heart or anything; he only did it because he was trying to get on Elena’s good side. Not that I think he wouldn’t have done it if it hadn’t been for her (at least the second time) but I don’t think of him as a particularly heroic figure because of what he did. The first time was an accident (he was just giving her blood to heal her faster and he did it only for Elena, the second time he was trying to make up for force-feeding Elena blood). I thought it was wonderful that he saved Tyler although then got bit (obvious plot device is obvious). He did what every single person on this show, including Caroline would have done for him, even if they don’t like him very much. Elena, Stefan, Caroline, maybe Bonnie, they would’ve all done the same. In fact, Caroline herself has saved his life by outing herself to her mother even though she absolutely didn't have to. This is what they kind of do, Damon just gets the most appreciation for it from fandom if not the actual show.


4. Caroline’s not grateful enough that Damon almost died because of her.

Caroline: Damon…Damon: I’m fine.

Caroline's non-reaction in As I Lay Dying bothered me a lot because I thought it was horribly OOC for her to not be concerned or blame herself (I even wrote fic about that to make myself feel better). If there’s one thing we know about Caroline Forbes, it’s that she cares way too much for her own good. However, I do understand this strange characterization as something that the show did. TVD has a tendency to stick to its triangles; it can only be Elena or Stefan at Damon's deathbed, only Matt and Tyler will be involved in a Caroline story-arc. I’ve mentioned this before and how much I want it to change because I’d love to see a wider range of interactions.
 
However, the later apathy I can understand. She doesn't have to be forever grateful that he almost died saving her by the same logic that Elena didn't hate Damon in just a couple of episodes for 'killing' Jeremy; because they both lived. (And again, both events happened maybe within a month or two of each other). Jeremy was dead for about half an hour or so, and Damon was 'dying' one evening and was probably not dying by the very same evening, it just lessened the impact of the anger or gratefulness.

And Damon threatened her dad. Regardless of how justified he might have been in a neutral context with the threat to 'out' him and the vervained water (and Bill did say he would never out Damon because he wouldn't out his own daughter.) It's obvious that Caroline loves her 'daddy' madly even thought he's a torturing psychopath. AND IF ANYONE SHOULD GET DOING ANYTHING FOR FAMILY, IT SHOULD BE DAMON. Damon would never really be mad at Caroline because they're similar in a lot of respects; always underestimated, always told to 'try harder' and rarely, if ever, appreciated, both rejected by their parents and they'd both do anything for people they want to keep safe. There is never going to be any real animosity between them because they get each other, despite "your annoying, control-freak of a daughter" and "all his bad brother glory."


5. Caroline doesn’t accept her vampiric nature.


source

NO, SHE DOESN’T, because she’s still a seventeen year old girl.
 
Stefan and Damon (who misses being human more than anything else in the world), STILL haven’t adjusted after a hundred and fifty odd years, so to expect Caroline to be all self-aware and at peace with herself is just highly improbable.
 
Also, what was really important about the Caroline/Bill scenes in The End of the Affair is Caroline’s reaction to the whole thing. At the end, she didn’t say ‘My dad tortured me for no particular reason’; she said ‘my daddy hates me.’ Caroline has internalized being a monster; she constantly feels the need to justify her existence. Everyone around her keeps making it out to be her fault; she needs to be ‘cured’: ‘if you kill one more person…’ ‘I was so mad at you…’ ‘I felt like throttling you’ ‘she’s not my daughter, not anymore’ ‘you’re a vampire, you’ll never be okay’. And these are all people who’re supposed to be her support system, to love her unconditionally. Is it any wonder then that she hides who she can be? Because a) she doesn’t want to be a vampire, she’ll stay in denial as long as she can. b) She’ll be rejected by EVERYONE she knows. If Caroline did half the things Damon does, she’d be out on the street with absolutely no one on her sides. As for Stefan, his existential crisis occurred before Mystic Falls, there’s nothing that he changed to ‘fit in’, he was already like this when he arrived. Damon is going through all his crises here, amongst people who don’t accept this side of his nature, which is why all the backlash is on him.

I’ve been discussing this with badboy_fangirl and ever_neutral but EVERY HUMAN ON THIS SHOW IS JUDGEMENTAL TOWARDS VAMPIRES ACTING LIKE VAMPIRES. It’s not something special reserved for Damon.
“I think if Damon would like to stay the way he is then I WOULD LOVE HIM FOREVER FOR IT. But then I don't understand why he thinks people will accept him for who he is. Like, the 'he just wants someone to love him, to accept him without conditions' passes over my head. Nobody's accepted Stefan for who he is (if you consider that point about Stefan not being a 'vampire' around Elena and giving her false expectations, repressing his true nature), nobody's accepted Caroline for who she is (girl's been hurt badly by both parents, Bonnie is friends with her ONLY as long as she doesn't kill, as presumably is Elena), so I don't see why any of them would accept Damon because he refuses to hide who he is. The point is that none of the vampires have been accepted AS vampires, they've been accepted because they're as 'human' as they can be. The prejudice is uniform for all characters; it's only that Damon arouses it more because of his lifestyle choices.”
 
So it’s completely possible, at a meta level, to appreciate Damon as a character for refusing to be false to who he is, but expecting the other characters in the show to do so doesn’t seem very reasonable. And bringing in other vampires we’ve seen in the show to talk about how much worse Damon could be is a moot point because none of those vampires are portrayed as the ‘good guys’. Every vampire who chooses to live AS A VAMPIRE is the BAD GUY. They’re the ‘them’ in the ‘us against them’.


6. She didn’t exhibit a similar reaction towards Stefan, even though he’s a vampire as well.

Okay, here I won’t go into the whole:

(even though it’s totally relevant). What I’d like to point out is:

“You have to admit that you’re kinda just letting your life pass you by.
And isn’t Stefan the one who wanted to make sure that you lived it?”

ELENA GILBERT IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS CAROLINE FORBES’ MAIN PRIORITY.

Over Damon, over Stefan, over everyone.

You would think Caroline would be one of the people to keep on the chase, but she gets it. She wants Elena to live all those moments which she’ll never get to experience herself. Even though she loves Stefan as one of her best friends (do you even remember that, show D:) she isn’t going to watch Elena let her life pass her by. She organizes the birthday, gets her to cut the cake, gets mad at Damon when he’s not there, handles Elena’s confusion over the Salvatores, tries to get her out of her denial, reassures her when Elena feels like she’ll be ‘less’ somehow, if she admits to liking Damon a little, accepts that; CAROLINE FORBES IS THE BEST FREAKIN’ FRIEND EVER.

And it’ll always be Elena and Bonnie over every guy for her. She’s shown it multiple times in many ways. Even the time when Stefan went all bitchy on her “if you’re my friend, like you’ve been pretending to be all day, you’ll tell me”, you could see she was torn up about it, because Stefan was fast becoming an anchor for her and he would dislike her for that, but she still kept Elena’s secret because, girlfriend code. She’s free for ‘girlfriend emergency’ even during sexytimes with Tyler. Obvious stan is obvious

Basically, I thought she was kickass this episode, and Damon obviously enjoyed their fight (“bummer, I love a good girl fight”) and anytime Caroline gets to beat up guys (pretty frequently) is A+ in my books.

I think I’m also cool with it because I thought Damon was AWESOME this episode. I’m so glad the show isn’t sacrificing who he’s always been to keep his friendships intact or making relationships static.He acted as he always does; he lashed out. The boy is self-destructive like whoa. DAMON HAS A LONG WAY TO GO, AND I'M GOING TO ENJOY EVERY SINGLE REGRESSIVE STEP.

Also, it got us Katherine/Damon road-trip, WHAT’S NOT TO LOVE?


Anyhow, I loved 3x04 but I'm too exhausted for a recap, so just have the icons!

Preview:
   
   

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+ Please comment and credit if taking
+ Please do not edit or hotlink
+ Enjoy :D

 
 
 
goldenusagigoldenusagi on October 8th, 2011 12:36 pm (UTC)
So, obviously everything that's happened to Caroline via Damon (however far in the viewer's memory) is recent for her.

My only thing about this is that, yes, while it is, the show itself seems to have forgotten that. We never saw a huge fallout from what Damon did to Caroline while she was human, because I honestly don't think the show knew how to go there.

I guess my thing is that Caroline seemed weirdly Damon-fixated/anti-Damon this ep. If she had been more hostile all along, I wouldn't see it as suddenly odd.
youcallitwinteryoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 12:51 pm (UTC)
I completely agree with that, which is why I'm fine with this fall-out, even if it's sudden (I'm also guessing it was only for that once episode, lol, this show) because it's something that needed to happen. Caroline's fixation arises because this time she realizes that it's not only Damon-is-madly-in-love-with-Elena, it's also that Elena is attracted to Damon and that rouses her protective instincts. She doesn't want Elena to go through even a quarter of what she's gone through and she's not sure how 'different' or 'safe' Damon is.

It's odd, definitely, but then but I don't think I'd blame Caroline for it, considering I don't blame Damon for mostly anything!

This show has a history of bringing up stuff they shall never addess, haha.
(no subject) - goldenusagi on October 8th, 2011 01:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 08:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
нσω ∂σ уσυ нσℓ∂ α мσση вєαм ιη уσυʀ нαη∂?: diaries ♔ caroline; can't stop my shinefiddlings on October 8th, 2011 01:00 pm (UTC)
Well said.

CAROLINE FORBES FTW. ♥

EDIT: Oh, and also, the Damon thing.

I’m so glad the show isn’t sacrificing who he’s always been to keep his friendships intact or making relationships static.He acted as he always does; he lashed out. The boy is self-destructive like whoa.

I'm glad someone remembers this. Because no one else seems to. They're all like WHY DID DAMON ACT LIKE THAT? Um, because he's still the same person. Sure, he's made progress, but to make him this one-dimensional guy who just pines for Elena and says cocky things about violence but never actually does them? Would be ridiculous and completely unbelievable, character-wise.

Edited at 2011-10-08 01:06 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 08:26 pm (UTC)
I AGREE, I'M SO BIASED TOWARDS CAROLINE IT'S NOT EVEN FUNNY. :D

Sure, he's made progress, but to make him this one-dimensional guy who just pines for Elena and says cocky things about violence but never actually does them? Would be ridiculous and completely unbelievable, character-wise.

YES, THANK YOU. And also, the show totally does this stuff deliberately with Damon because they know that a majority of fandom will forgive Damon regardless of most things he does. I remember a Julie Plec interview where she's like 'we though him killing Jeremy would make everyone hate him, like how dare he do it. But instead the reactions we got were 'poor Damon, he's so sad. He's totally alone. No one chooses him.' and that was awesome because we can explore his character to the extreme now because he'll still have audience sympathy." This is exactly what makes him so interesting; if all he was was a vampire completely in love with Elena and a ~better man because of a woman's love, I wouldn't even watch that. *nods*
(no subject) - fiddlings on October 8th, 2011 11:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 9th, 2011 04:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fiddlings on October 10th, 2011 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Ishi-chanishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 01:01 pm (UTC)
Caroline's non-reaction in As I Lay Dying bothered me a lot because I thought it was horribly OOC for her to not be concerned or blame herself.

That bothered me a lot, especially because I squeed so hard when he did it (It nearly made my D/C shipper heart explode). :/

Still haven't watched any new TVD so I can't really talk about all that other stuff, but I hate that people seem to hold the most natural human reactions against her, even more so because Damon gets a free pass for pretty much anything.
youcallitwinter: all you touch and all you see.youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 08:32 pm (UTC)
I know, right? It was completely OOC for me, it didn't make sense for her character at all!

OMG, THIS EPISODE I WAS ALL FOR DAMON/CAROLINE LIKE WHOA. They were SO GOOD in, like, the one scene they had together. I was legit aww...ing at 'your annoying, control-freak of a daughter'. And the fight scene shouldn't have been as hot as it was :D

Damon in this fandom is that character who either inspires epic love or epic hate; people who'll forgive him anything (or will say that he didn't do those things at all) and people who'd hate him even if he was building a shelter for homeless kittens, haha.

Wait, when you say you haven't watched new TVD, you mean this season? YOU SHOULD, AS A D/C SHIPPER :D
(no subject) - ishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 08:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 09:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 09:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 09:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 10:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ishi_chan on October 8th, 2011 10:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - simply_aly on October 10th, 2011 08:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
brightstarmarabrightstarmara on October 8th, 2011 01:33 pm (UTC)
Caroline ROCKED THIS EPISODE!!!! I always love her but she kicked Damon's ass and he did not see that coming at all.
youcallitwinter: all you touch and all you see.youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 08:33 pm (UTC)
CAROLINE KICKING DAMON'S ASS (highly unrealistic, heh) WAS THE BEST THING EVER. I ADORED IT SO MUCH. And I love how at the end, when they stopped fighting, Damon was all "bummer, I enjoy a good girl fight".
(no subject) - brightstarmara on October 9th, 2011 01:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 9th, 2011 04:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
unoshotunoshot on October 8th, 2011 03:13 pm (UTC)
What what whaaaaat. See, this is why I don't read fandom reaction thingies (except yours, I guess, because yours are directly on my friend list? And also you're not insane).

1) Caroline kicking the shit out of Damon was the awesomest part of that episode.
2) Damon being a complete jackass was the second-awesomest part of that episode.

I did have questions! Questions like 'Seriously, did no one stumble over Ric's body on the front lawn there,' or 'How come Katherine knows everything all the time, like a sultry badass deus ex machina,' or 'Did Tyler not follow Caroline downstairs.'

But my questions were not 'how could anyone treat Damon that way,' because really, Damon is most glorious when he is a jackoff. The problem seems to be that the show cannot formulate his character, or others' reactions to him, consistently. Is he supposed to be "reforming," or is he static? We're not seeing the frame of any particular journey so far; he's just yo-yoing. So he's a good guy and then he's not, but then he is, but then he's not, which is fine except this doesn't seem to be acknowledged within the narrative; other characters just seem to treat him according to whatever he's supposed to be that week.

In summary: rock on, Caroline. Also, I'm kind of disappointed in this whole Stefan story so far; I want more Ripper. So much more Ripper! And also also, Katherine + Damon Roadtrip 4EVA.
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 08:54 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I never used to read them. OR WRITE THEM. But obviously apparently I wasn't wasting my time enough so I decided to do both. There should be a medal *nods*

1) AGREED.
2) AGREED AGAIN.

But seriously, I adored the Damon/Caroline fight, especially how completely fine they seemed to be with each other after it. And Damon being all "maaaan, gurl can fight". It was more than epic. Also, Caroline kicking the ass of the men in this show is never not awesome; Matt, Tyler, Mason, Damon. The girl is basically the hbic-est of them all. She and Katherine need to start School of Awesome.

Questions like 'Seriously, did no one stumble over Ric's body on the front lawn there,' or 'How come Katherine knows everything all the time, like a sultry badass deus ex machina,' or 'Did Tyler not follow Caroline downstairs.'

That is forever Katherine's nickname now: Sultry Badass Deux Ex Machina, basically.

Also, GOOD QUESTIONS I didn't think of any of them DDD:.

But my questions were not 'how could anyone treat Damon that way,' because really, Damon is most glorious when he is a jackoff. The problem seems to be that the show cannot formulate his character, or others' reactions to him, consistently. Is he supposed to be "reforming," or is he static?

I've always thought that was the basic conflict that the writers have absolutely no idea how to go about resolving. Because they want to go there but they also want to write a love story. Somewhere in the middle people are going to wonder HOW THE FUCK ARE THESE TWO SUPPOSED TO BE ROMANTIC HEROES AND GET THE GIRL? THEY ARE PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS. And if they weren't, this show wouldn't have a quarter of the appeal that it does have for me, as I assume it wouldn't for you (idek, maybe we just have issues, you and I :ss)

I mentioned it above too but Julie Plec said something to the effect: 'we though him killing Jeremy would make everyone hate him, like how dare he do something like that, he's irredeemable. But instead the reactions we got were 'poor Damon, he's so sad. He's totally alone. No one chooses him.' and that was awesome because we can explore his character to the extreme now because he'll still have audience sympathy." That's the thing about Damon, he enjoys audience-reaction immunity. He kills Elena's brother; he's lost and alone. He kills random girl on the road: poor guy, she'll never choose him. He force-feeds Elena blood: he loves her so much unlike Stefan who was totally willing to let her die. He compels/abuses Andie: well it's a little bad, but still, she did love him. He snaps Ric's neck: why is Ric being so pushy? Haha, actually that's character-jackpot. DAMON SALVATORE CAN DO ANYTHING, he's a bit of superman in reverse. I love that psychotic jackass so much.

Other characters just seem to treat him according to whatever he's supposed to be that week.

HAHAHA, A++

I want Klaus/Rebekah/Stefan and Damon/Katherine sexytiemz like WHOA
Amyshineyma on October 8th, 2011 03:56 pm (UTC)
Okay, do you mind if I just quietly build an altar and worship you? I seriously love you for this. It's everything I've been feeling, only much more eloquent and coherent.

And thank you for this:
Also, what was really important about the Caroline/Bill scenes in The End of the Affair is Caroline’s reaction to the whole thing. At the end, she didn’t say ‘My dad tortured me for no particular reason’; she said ‘my daddy hates me.’ Caroline has internalized being a monster; she constantly feels the need to justify her existence. Everyone around her keeps making it out to be her fault; she needs to be ‘cured’: ‘if you kill one more person…’ ‘I was so mad at you…’ ‘I felt like throttling you’ ‘she’s not my daughter, not anymore’ ‘you’re a vampire, you’ll never be okay’. And these are all people who’re supposed to be her support system, to love her unconditionally. Is it any wonder then that she hides who she can be? Because a) she doesn’t want to be a vampire, she’ll stay in denial as long as she can. b) She’ll be rejected by EVERYONE she knows.

I'm so glad that that bothers someone else! I've always hated the way that everyone reacts to Caroline-as-a-vampire. They're always blaming her and being harsh about it, and I just find that appalling, treating it as something she's done rather than something that was done to her.

Oh, and I always forget about the timeline thing. It's been so long for us, it's hard to remember that it hasn't really been that long for them. Good point!

Okay, I'm gonna go build an altar or something. Thank you for this! :)
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:01 pm (UTC)
Haha, awww, such a sweetheart :D I legit looked at your icon first and thought 'ooh you doesn't agree with me!' And then it took me a while to process the first line because I thought you meant building a place with giant voodoo dolls of me because I'd disappointed you so much with this post, haha.

CAROLINE LOVE IS ALWAYS A+ IN MY BOOK.

Caroline actually gets the most flack from everyone. EVERYONE. Bonnie and Elena never told her about the whole supernatural element till she died and turned into one. Bonnie hates her after that like it was her fault. Damon tried to kill her. Her mom tried to kill her. Her dad tortured her. IS IT ANY WONDER SHE'S MESSED UP?

TVD timeline is REALLY messed up because so much happens within the space of an evening, lol, hard to keep track of all the characterization.

Thank you so much, I'm so glad you agreed! :D

(no subject) - shineyma on October 8th, 2011 09:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
comeundone_82: peek a boo Elenacomeundone_82 on October 8th, 2011 04:10 pm (UTC)
Haha I loved the episode too, minus Alaric being so OOC (IMO) and the Caroline issues. Well I don´t mind what she said about Damon I only find it a bit judgy of her to do so. I mean she´s sorta been in a triangle herself recently and in my book Tyler is still not the pure hero himself. Caroline could forgive him an awful lot too last season and IDK that´s what bothers me about it I think.

Hope you´ll make some icons too *makes doe eyes* ;)
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:11 pm (UTC)
Haha, I liked Alaric as well (I LIKE EVERYONE/EVERTHING, MAN I'M SO EASY) mostly because he finally gets a storyline! I'm pretty sure the bromance will be on like whoa soon enough though, lol. I know Caroline can come off as judgy but Damon keeps doing random stuff like attacking her dad (who tortured her, WTF, but he's still he dad in her eyes) so she's wary of him and she doesn't want her friend to get too messed up because of him.

Tyler is still not the pure hero himself. Caroline could forgive him an awful lot too last season and IDK that´s what bothers me about it I think.

I think the difference here is that Tyler has almost definitely redeemed himself (unless he goes and does something horrible later, which, since this is TVD, I wouldn't put past them). He saved Elena when he found out about the sacrifice, he outed himself to his mom just for Caroline's sake. And Caroline was actually really fierce with him when he came to her door after Daddy Issues (I LOVE that scene), while in Damon's case, he progresses and regresses and on and on. You can never be too sure of Damon, which IS what makes him such an awesome character imo :D

OMG, I REALLY WANT TO MAKE ICONS AND DO A PROPER SQUEE POST. Seriously, what is my life even? /sigh
(no subject) - comeundone_82 on October 9th, 2011 01:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 9th, 2011 04:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - comeundone_82 on October 9th, 2011 06:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Arabian: Caroline02arabian on October 8th, 2011 04:15 pm (UTC)
Never mind, I'm deleting this. This is your journal, your place, and I'm not going to disagree with you here in your place. :) You see what you did, and that's cool, I saw what I did, and that's cool too. I don't want to waste the post, though, LOL, so I'm going to post it on my LJ. Feel free to respond there if you'd like to. :)

Edited at 2011-10-08 04:22 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:15 pm (UTC)
Haha, really you shouldn't have deleted it! We all love this show so much that any sort of discussion, agreement or disagreement is just testimony to how much it gets under our skin (which is major win for the show). And especially since EVERYONE I KNOW takes such different things out from it. I really love that about TVD ;D

(Also we totally started an LJ mini-war, that's awesome. I've always wanted to be famous *preens*)
Pied: carolinewheatear on October 8th, 2011 04:38 pm (UTC)
People are mad at Caroline? /does not compute
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:18 pm (UTC)
MAJORLY. Like almost everyone seems to have hated the way she was talking about Damon to Elena, while I was all "GURL'S RIGHT, LISTEN TO HER".

(Although possibly not the larger fandom since she rightly won the ontd_tvdiaries character post of the week! Man, she was so kickass this episode <3)
(no subject) - wheatear on October 8th, 2011 09:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 10:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wheatear on October 8th, 2011 10:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Lizzie: tvd|katherine fiercexx_pinkstar on October 8th, 2011 05:49 pm (UTC)
EVERY HUMAN ON THIS SHOW IS JUDGEMENTAL TOWARDS VAMPIRES ACTING LIKE VAMPIRES. It’s not something special reserved for Damon.

THIS. Is also the thing about TVD humans, they chill with the vamps, want to date them/be their BFF's and be all OH I'M SO ACCEPTING THAT YOU'RE A VAMPIRE. But when they actually act like a vampire - I AM HORRIFIED, NEVAH SPEAK 2 ME AGEN etc etc.

I didn't even know people were saying all this, but you made some great retaliation points, especially on the 'non-accepting vampire' front because, duh, exactly. I loved Caroline in this ep (even though, I have to admit her sudden thing about Damon was kind of out of nowhere) but I also loved Damon in this ep, because this is my kind of Damon with all his non-Stefan badness. BRING ON THE D/K ROADTRIP, was my main thought by the end of the episode, not that Caroline was anything less than her normal HBIC self.

Also your little Stefan/Caroline picspam up there had me staring at it for about five minutes, REMEMBERING WHY I SHIP THEM LIKE A BITCH RIGHT NOW <3 their little faces :')
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:30 pm (UTC)
THIS. Is also the thing about TVD humans, they chill with the vamps, want to date them/be their BFF's and be all OH I'M SO ACCEPTING THAT YOU'RE A VAMPIRE. But when they actually act like a vampire - I AM HORRIFIED, NEVAH SPEAK 2 ME AGEN etc etc.

HAHAHAHA. YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE BEST DESCRIPTIONS. So true, lol, they drink his beer and throw parties in his living room and then want him to be a better man before they talk to him, haha. I actually had NO ISSUES at all this episode. Although totally agreed that all the outburst of anti-Damon ~feeling was kinda out of nowhere but I suppose they're planning something awesome with the show ergo. (I AM NOT EVEN THIS SHOW'S TARGET AUDIENCE DD:) Caroline was ~flawless in my book and I LOVE it when Katherine totally flusters Damon and he has no idea of how to react to her.

Stefan/Caroline. Oh my god. THE SHOW BETTER BE PREPARING EPIC MOMENTS OF BFFNESS FOR THEM NOT HAVING BEEN IN THE SAME FRAME IN A GAZILLION YEARS.

Shaitanah: damon/elenaistne_pieklo on October 8th, 2011 05:50 pm (UTC)
Did some people actually have a negative reaction towards Caroline in this ep? Because I didn't even know about it until I read your post, and I'd already agreed with everything you wrote here. I loved Caroline in it, I totally understand both her concern about Elena's possible feelings for Damon and her fight with Damon, and I find all that a plausible character motivation.
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:21 pm (UTC)
Did some people actually have a negative reaction towards Caroline in this ep?

Haha, I know, right? My reaction was all O_____O BUT SHE WAS AWESOME? SHE KICKED DAMON'S ASS AND GOT ELENA OUT OF DENIAL, HOW WAS THAT NOT AWESOME? And I genuinely think she's constantly underestimated as a friend. Initially I would've thought she'd be the sort of person who'd take guys over girlfriends, but she's pretty much the exact opposite. UGH, WHY SO ADORABLE, CAROLINE?
jane_wanderlustjane_wanderlust on October 8th, 2011 06:09 pm (UTC)
Thank God for you! Thank God for this post!

I have been loving everything Caroline lately, and while I tend to not be too involved in fandom lately (fu, real life), the concept of people turning on her for some (in my opinion) completely understandable actions/reactions toward him is absurd.

Caroline is the brunt of the show's emotional canvassing. Yes, Damon goes through a lot of existential crises, and yes Elena has had a lot of horrible things happen to her, but, despite Caroline's vampirism, she is still SO obviously human.
She is the one that we get to watch the full spectrum of humanity and human emotions showcase themselves on.

And yes, her being a vampire is badass. But she struggles with it, and it that her humanity remains more intact than almost all other characters.

Caroline. Is. Perfect.

I have so many more thoughts and praises for you, but I'm failing in the ability to phrase them.

Perfect post is perfect.
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 10:08 pm (UTC)
I'M STILL IN LOVE WITH YOU LIKE BURNING FOR BEING AWESOME.

I always love everything Caroline and I really SHOULD NOT be as involved with fandom as I am considering all that I have to do in RL, especially this year D: YOU RESTRAINT, I WANT.

I think you're absolutely right (have we ever disagreed, I DON'T EVEN KNOW) and I think Caroline's emotional impact was completely encapsulated by "I'm not girly little Caroline anymore, I can handle myself". Because she CAN handle herself to a great extent but that does NOT mean that she's not girly little Caroline anymore. Despite spending hours being tortured, she still breaks down when her friends come over to slumber it, she can't bear the thought of her "daddy hating her". I LOVE how vulnerable she is, despite everything; the pushing around guys and being a vampire, etc. She's still just a teenage girl.

YOU ALWAYS MAKE ME <3_______<3
Devin: [TVD] Caroline In Four Framesjadediamondfire on October 8th, 2011 06:19 pm (UTC)
Are people seriously upset about Caroline's treatment of Damon in this episode? That just completely baffles me. She was looking out for Elena and her father, both of which are natural and good. She doesn't owe Damon anything. Even if he has saved her life, it was only incidental out of a desire to protect Elena or make her happy. He doesn't really care about Caroline. Seriously, what is with this fandom? They're so in love with Damon, that someone is not even allowed to express a negative opinion about the terrible things he's done? Really?
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:38 pm (UTC)
Are people seriously upset about Caroline's treatment of Damon in this episode?

Haha, I know, right? Obviously I got worked about about a fictional character's fictional problems and rushed immediately to write meta on it. Sometime I don't understand myself /sigh.

I've said this above but That's the thing about Damon, he enjoys audience-reaction immunity. He kills Elena's brother; he's lost and alone. He kills random girl on the road: poor guy, she'll never choose him. He force-feeds Elena blood: he loves her so much unlike Stefan who was totally willing to let her die. He compels/abuses Andie: well it's a little bad, but still, she did love him. He snaps Ric's neck: why is Ric being so pushy? Haha, actually that's character-jackpot. DAMON SALVATORE CAN DO ANYTHING. And I love that they can explore all these dark, murky, non-heroic territories with him.

I can believe that Damon cares about Caroline and vice-versa but that doesn't have to mean that she's going to let her best friend get attracted to him without warning her. THAT would've been something to talk about!
Siannejsharia on October 8th, 2011 06:35 pm (UTC)
WHOA people didn't come out of that episode going "CAROLINE WHAT A BAMF. LET ME LOVE YOU!"

...well...I did =D OOPS?
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:40 pm (UTC)
WHOA people didn't come out of that episode going "CAROLINE WHAT A BAMF. LET ME LOVE YOU!"

YOU REACTION IS MY REACTION. This episode was all Caroline Forbes (and Damon Salvatore, I love the psychotic dysfunctional guys :s) for me. She was just majorly, MAJORLY kickass. :D
(no subject) - jsharia on October 9th, 2011 03:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
youcallitwinter: and I'm here to get it back from youyoucallitwinter on October 8th, 2011 09:49 pm (UTC)
I woke up to find my f-list fighting? Why has it seemed to become Caroline vs. Damon?

Haha, the 'woke up' really interested me because I'm going to sleep. TIME DIFFERENCES. I didn't mean for it to be Caroline vs. Damon at all, more a defence of Caroline because I thought she was amazing this episode and I genuinely didn't realize that other people didn't see it like that!

D/E kitchen scene was epic in the beginning and then Elena smiled all friendly and I was seriously like...what? Yeah, the definitely missed that moment. It seemed a bit like, 'now Stefan doesn't want to be saved, field's clear', obviously not what the writers intended, haha.
I liked Ric's storyline, mostly because he's getting a storyline, WHO SAW THAT COMING. And D/K roadtrip of awesome. CAN'T WAIT!

I LOVE CAROLINE AND DAMON SO MUCH. They're my favorites and they just need to keep having scenes together :D
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on October 12th, 2011 06:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)