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04 December 2012 @ 10:42 pm
[this turned into badly written meta, oh well.]  

OKAY, I HAVE AN EXAM DAY AFTER AND I AM SO DEAD. BYE.

quick note

I'm back in Caroline stanning mode, because the larger DE fandom is the actual worst #no regrets

Okay, first, does judgmental mean something different in fandom? Like, I've been hearing around about how Caroline's a terrible friend and should be supportive of Elena's choices, instead of judging her and LOL what? I'm not even going to take the Caroline-is-projecting/The-show-doesn't-care-about-her-and-wants-a-mouthpiece-for-their-ships/She-was-abused-ruthlessly-by-Damon-she-has-the-right-to arguments, all very compelling and all mostly right, but seriously what is with the 'judgy' thing? The whole point of being a friend is that you are allowed to be absolutely, completely irrational about terrible life choices you think your friend is making. One of my friends is dating this guy who I absolutely dislike and I think is terrible for her, because I've known him since before they got together and she's unhappy and constantly feels insecure about him (with good reason) AND that she's not good enough because he constantly criticizes her appearance, lifestyle, friends, etc., but she "loves him" and can't let him go. And I am absolutely VOCAL about how she needs to re-evaluate and re-think the whole business. I occasionally rationally point out why he's not good for her, but most of the time I'm so worried for her that I don't even pretend to be rational about it. Technically, for Caroline, Damon is the abusive asshole, who didn't only use her and abuse her but also constantly chipped at her insecurities ("you're the only stupid thing here. And shallow. And useless.") and was absolutely terrible in every respect, even as a boyfriend. Not only that, but he's been absolutely unrepentant about it, and he's never shown the slightest bit of remorse about it and even now treats her as a minor annoyance.

So technically, there is absolutely no reason for Caroline to think that Damon won't be the same with Elena. The argument against that, of course, is that "Damon loves Elena". Okay, I'm a little cynical on this front, but this argument wouldn't hold with me personally. If I or one of my friends was treated terribly by a guy, who then 'fell in love with' another friend, that would still not be enough to convince me that she shouldn't be anywhere near him. Why Caroline upped her bitch-factor (which, guh, I love that though, even though not particularly in this context, but bitchy!Caroline = favorite) this episode, even while the Elena-and-Damon thing has not only existed previously but she's aware that they've made out and she and Elena have even discussed it, was because Stefan categorically stated that "Elena has feelings for Damon." This is different. What Caroline has known till now is that Elena is attracted to Damon. That some part of Elena wants Damon physically. And she hasn't particularly said anything to Elena about that, because that's okay; weird in Caroline's opinion, but okay. However, having "feelings" implies vulnerability, Elena is vulnerable to Damon. And the fact is that Caroline knows how absolutely persuasive Damon is; he wasn't terrible to her all the time, he was was sweet "when he wanted to be" and absolutely gentle at times, and then went and used all of Caroline's vulnerabilities against her.

Which is why Caroline jumped to the 'sired' conclusion, irrespective of whether it's right or not (it's right according to the interviews; okay, whatever, show), because Elena is acting 'compelled'; the same way that she remembers acting; with the look of adoration and agreeing with him; and as a vampire she can't be compelled, the nearest correlative is 'sired'. Caroline had, just moments ago, heard that Elena has feelings for Damon and the next thing that Elena does in the Damon-context is agree with Damon on the red dress, and later, on Jeremy being safe; the latter being inexplicable, because Jeremy is the one topic on which Elena won't be "calmed down" usually. From a limited outsider/friend perspective, that is suspicious. Not sired-suspicious but suspicious in the sense that if one of those real and hypothetical friends I've been mentioning in this post suddenly said they liked the red dress because their boyfriend liked the red dress, even though moments before they'd said they liked the blue, then that would send alarm signals ringing.

And the reason it's easy to jump to this conclusion is because the in-text characters (Bonnie, Caroline, etc.) do not have the omniscient outsider perspective. All they know about Elena's relationship with Damon is what Elena chooses to reveal to them. And Elena doesn't choose to reveal much on the Damon-front and actively appears to hide Stefan's awful behavior and her real feelings about both of them, because she herself believes (believed) that her feelings aren't "right", that there's something wrong with her for wanting Damon. So, all that Bonnie and Caroline really know is that Elena said she feels this way, and they agree, because it's not "right" to want Damon in their books either. So they're not going out of the way to be supportive, or tell her that she's free to like whomever she chooses to and she shouldn't be ashamed of her choices, because they believe it's a 'phase' and it'll pass and they're willing to wait till it does. Further, Elena has always maintained the Salvatore-dichotomy herself amongst her friends; when Bonnie saw her enjoying feeding, Elena categorically held that it was because she "should have come with Stefan, not Damon", explicitly projecting her 'vampire' side onto Damon's influence. (Which, I can write a meta on how that is absolutely fascinating and how much I love it, but that meta has probably already been written by other people, so I'll stick to the topic at hand.) From Bonnie's POV, this immediately posits Stefan as Good, because Not Enjoying Feeding is good in her book; it's a necessity, she knows, to feed, but the idea of enjoying it horrifies her; so Damon, herein equated with that enjoyment, becomes Bad. And as far as Bonnie knows, Elena feels terrible about it (which, I have no doubt, she actually does), and is wishing that she hadn't allowed Damon to sway her and that Stefan was with her instead. This is the same thing that Elena has implied or explicitly said this multiple times to Caroline as well; that she can't seem to quit Damon, but she'd like to, that she doesn't like feeling the way she does about him, and that she actually loves Stefan. And there is no reason for Caroline to disbelieve her either. Especially as this idea fits in with both Caroline and Bonnie's conception of the Salvatores; which is why they don't challenge it; don't question Elena on whether she's trying to repress her real feelings; because the way they see it, it makes perfect sense. They feel this way, Elena says she feels this way, so it stands to reason that Elena actually feels this way; they all enable the same image. (And this is also why Elena's sudden departure from it seems radical and inexplicable to Caroline, even though the audience doesn't have any difficulty accepting it.)

And technically, that makes sense. Stefan doesn't enjoy feeding from humans (or rather, he isn't willing to accept that he enjoys feeding from humans) and neither does Caroline, which is why they're accepted back into the fold of their friends. I've made this argument before, but nobody on this show is accepted for who they are. This unacceptance is not something special reserved for Elena and Damon; if Caroline were to start feeding from people, she'd be equally shunned. In fact as late as Season 3; Elena was absolutely horrified herself when she came across the Rebekah-Damon-Stefan scene where Stefan was feeding, even when she'd been aware that he needed to feed to gain control. It's the reason why Damon is still Public Enemy No. 1 regardless of everything he's done to help and Stefan is not; because Stefan others his 'monstrous' side entirely, while Caroline's is near-latent, which makes them identify as human, no matter how psychologically damaging it must be to repress an existing part of you; but Damon (and now Elena) accept their vampire sides. It's important here to note that this would be okay if they rejected the human social structure, and identified solely as creatures higher on the hierarchical order and believed that they have a right to feel the way they do, to enjoy the feed, because they're vampires; like Katherine, or even Klaus. However, they don't do that either. What they want is to be accepted into the human fold as vampires, which is nearly impossible. This isn't about freedom of choice etc., it's about how societies work. And that is how societies work; social structures are stringent and have their gods and their demons, and breaking social codes renders you open to ostracization, which is what Damon (and now Elena) face.

I've heard a lot of fandom talk about how 'oh, so Caroline wants Elena to be The Good Girl and not want The Bad Boy Damon and can't accept Elena's feelings for Damon.' No, for Caroline, Elena can't want Damon because Elena hasn't ever given any indication of wanting Damon. Au contraire she has repeatedly affirmed that she loves Stefan and that she does not want Damon. So her post-transition behavior is more than a little odd to Caroline, odd enough to be worrying, especially since it's post-transition; at a time when all new vampires are extremely vulnerable. Ergo the "she's lost." And this has technically always been Caroline's position; in season two when Elena wanted Caroline to distract Stefan so she could talk to Katherine, Stefan went "she's with Damon, isn't she" and Caroline's like "What, no. Eww." Two seasons later and she still has the same position, because she isn't aware that there's been any real change in that department. 'Humanity' has always been posited as the antithesis to 'monstrosity' in this show, and although the definition of the latter has undergone a massive reworking through the course of this show, it still hasn't opened up to the extent of accepting vampires for 'who they are'. Which is why Elena is "wrong" and "needs to be cured". Because "having feelings for Damon" isn't just about Damon, it's about all he stands for, and believing that Elena is 'sired' (which is not a far stretch if you consider the non-Elena/Damon outsider perspective and what they know/do not know about Damon/Elena moments and Elena's interiority) is what they'd like to believe. Caroline is trying to be a good friend here, and if, in fact, it turns out that she was right about the sire-bond, then she would have been absolutely right to be worried. It's not about being supportive or judgmental about a friend's choices; it's what you believe you should be supportive about and what you should be judging, and where you feel you should intervene. Especially when you believe that your friend is making terrible life decisions; decisions that she herself has admitted as terrible life decisions, which is making her make further choices that both she and you have always held as 'wrong'. Strangely enough, the 'love/feelings' argument never seems to win out in friendships; it's not called being judgmental, it's called being friends.

The problem with Caroline is what has always been the problem with Caroline (as a person, and not as a character, because imo it enhances her character, but makes her a difficult person to deal with), she's far too blunt and can be rude to the point that even if she were speaking the truth, she'd only come across as an awful person ("you're not good at cheerleading anymore because you missed Cheer Camp that time your parents died".) Instead of qualifying her statements with social niceties and the general truth about how she's worried and how she's been in this position before, she gets all "god, the thought of you and Damon makes me sick." Also, she's never allowed to qualify why. Which villianizes her, instead of acknowledging her status as a victim. Caroline's trauma (and not only the abuse but also being tortured by her father and her mother's attempts to kill her initially or the death of her father etc. She's never so much as actually been allowed to say something like "when my dad died") doesn't count for much in this show, so when she's speaking from a position that'd be understandable if she were allowed to qualify it, it instead comes off as harpish and sanctimonious. Also it kind of amuses me when people project their views onto the other characters and then hate them for not holding the same opinions, as in "why can't Elena be allowed to have fun while feeding" or "at least Damon accepts who he is" and about why they have to be tied down to their Good Girl/Bad Boy images by the characters and shamed for it; I mean, that's an excellent argument as an outsider. That is what I want to see happen; I want a massacre and lots of explosions and things and people eating people and Elena just sort of lifting people with one arm; y'know, fun stuff. In universe, if the characters were just to go 'sure whatevs', that would not only be massively unrealistic, but also undermine three seasons worth of establishing that 'people die around you, how could it not matter?' I mean, I LOVE that scenes like the party-bloodbash-drunk-dancing scenes are being written and what it means for Elena's character, but I also don't expect other characters to accept that, because they're in that universe. It's like, conversely, I love TVD characters, but that in no way implies that I'd ever want to be friends with people like them in real life.

And as for the question of 'why does it have to be Stefan, why not neither' is because it's show-logic, not Caroline-logic; it's the same reason why Elena is living with the Salvatores rather than Bonnie or Caroline, even with all the tension with the recent break-up and exploration of alternate feelings etc., that there is no reason. Because it has to be the Salvatores. If not Damon, then Stefan. If not Stefan, then Damon. There is no third option in show-logic.



THIS STARTED WITH QUICK NOTE; WHAT THE ACTUAL HELL IS WRONG WITH ME. OH MY GOD, EXAMS.

OKAY BYE REALLY.
 
 
 
Sandrine: Elenasandrine on December 4th, 2012 05:30 pm (UTC)

I'm not okay with how Caroline acted last episode, but not because she's vocally anti-Damon. I get that. Damon mind-controlled and physically and sexually abused her in season one, so it makes sense that Caroline would not be okay with her best friend entering a relationship with him. What I mostly disapprove of is how she's shoving Stefan at Elena and says, "you're soulmates, you have to be together". I think for a friend telling another friend that guy X is wrong for them is perfectly normal, but pushing the friend into a relationship that they just quit is NOT OKAY. Especially because Caroline knows what Stefan is capable of and knows that, while he may or may not be better than Damon, he is by no means a 'perfect' choice or someone who can ensure that Elena has the normal life Caroline thinks Elena wants/needs.

Also, I get why Caroline doesn't see the irony of standing next to Klaus while she berates Elena on her choice of men, because obviously Caroline thinks that the fact that she's just fake dating rather than actually dating Klaus makes it okay. And it would. Except then Elena walks away and Caroline has the nerve to rant to Klaus about this and confides in him, which kind of invalidates the whole fake date thing.

Sure, they're all teenagers and not very self-aware, but at this point, this holier-than-thou attitude pisses me off.
youcallitwinter: all over the world tonight.youcallitwinter on December 4th, 2012 05:54 pm (UTC)
Re:
This was why I didn't raise the Caroline-is-anti-Damon argument because that is a fact and it's well justified and I've explored it often enough!

What I mostly disapprove of is how she's shoving Stefan at Elena and says, "you're soulmates, you have to be together".

I have no explanation for this, honestly, because there IS no explanation for this; it's what I was trying to say, that it's inbuilt in the premise of the show, it has to be the Salvatores. I rage against it often and I am constantly annoyed with the ~triangle business, and this sire-bond business is ALSO because they want more triangle leverage, but since it's the premise, I have to accept it. Which means that I have to accept everything that comes with it; which is, that if not Stefan, it HAS to be Damon; there's no logic to it, but it's constantly what is held by the show. Caroline will never be allowed to go 'hey let's ditch them both' (and in fact she has talked about ditching Stefan too; Caroline was the first person to tell Elena to move on from Stefan in Season 3 and that she couldn't live out her life like this, which is why this recent position is both a retcon and terrible.) And it's kind of impossible to judge how much Caroline knows Stefan is capable of; whether she knows about Wickery Bridge or the time he was basically willing to let Jeremy die; and that, despite the 'Ripper' stuff, Stefan is still considered 'acceptable' (not only by Caroline, but Bonnie too, who hugged him while crying, which, what even show) because he feels ~guilty, because he doesn't want to, which makes him Good, regardless of what he does. Not to mention Elena with Stefan is Good (she wouldn't enjoy feeding etc.) Honestly, I'm not saying it's right (I've been waiting for Elena to massacre villages since the first day), but it makes sense, considering this IS the morality that the show has expounded since three seasons. Why Elena herself always felt that loving Stefan was 'right' and often said so.

And I don't know, I'm reading the Klaus situation in a different way. In my opinion, it doesn't make Caroline hypocritical, instead, it makes the actions of her friends inexplicable. I mean why isn't anyone doing the same for Caroline; why isn't anyone going HEY MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE STANDING NEXT TO/FAKE DATING/REAL DATING THAT TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE, SUPER-POWERFUL GUY WHO KILLS WHENEVER HE FEELS LIKE IT. Instead they blithely make use of her whenever they want to 'distract' Klaus, and put her in danger each time. Also, I'm guessing the difference is that Caroline doesn't love/like/have feelings for Klaus; she minorly enjoys his attention, but that's about it. (She also HAS repeatedly told him to stay away and never sought him out unless forced to because of some plan). Which is why she never interfered when Elena felt the same about Damon, when it was just physical attraction. But now that it's MORE, it's problematic.

Edited at 2012-12-04 06:21 pm (UTC)
Re: - sandrine on December 4th, 2012 06:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on December 4th, 2012 06:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
upupa_epops: [tvd] Caroline yellowupupa_epops on December 4th, 2012 05:34 pm (UTC)
Good luck with Contract Law!

I have nothing to add, really. I'm so mad that the show reduced what could've been an extremely interesting conflict to, well, what they reduced it to :(. WE COULD'VE HAD IT ALL!

Meh, larger D/E fandom. Opinions about it, I have them.

ETA: Hold on, I did find a minor thing to disagree with ;). I think there actually is a good reason for Elena to end up at the Salvatores when it turns out she can't be near Jeremy? She's just had a big fight with Caroline, and she's tired, she wouldn't want to get into another fight (even if there is a chance Caroline wouldn't try to fight in a situation like this, Elena expects the worst). Bonnie would be the best option, but, as we see from Elena's hallucination in 4x06, Elena is subconsciously convinced that Bonnie hates her; she's too ashamed to ask for Bonnie's help. Elena could also move in to Alaric's now empty loft, only after just being "rejected" by her only remaining family members, the idea of staying anywhere alone is just too terrifying.

Edited at 2012-12-04 05:47 pm (UTC)
youcallitwinter: all we know is distanceyoucallitwinter on December 4th, 2012 06:19 pm (UTC)
Thank you, omg, I so need it right now!

THIS SHOW IS THE WORST. And now that it's villianizing Caroline, and making her out to be the bitchy, horrible friend, it's making me very mad.

Also, larger DE fandom, oh my god, how do people opinions? D:

I suppose I found it odd because obviously there is just as much, if not more emotional baggage with Stefan and Damon, as there is with Caroline and Bonnie. I'm pretty sure she's convinced Stefan hates her too, and living with both him and Damon, especially at this time, must also be both taxing and awkward. And in the preview, it does kind of seem like they didn't really take the girls' fight as a 'fight', because they seem fine. Which was also what was actually good about the episode in fact; that when they were on stage, AFTER the fight, giving the crown away, they were genuinely smiling at each other. So the way that I read it was that Elena got sick of Caroline's attitude (which, who wouldn't, it WAS over-the-top), but she understands it, and so she was all "fine bye, you're being mean", but that's about it; very, very normal. It kind of felt contrived, I mean, she's calling Caroline and Bonnie over for a sleepover so it technically doesn't seem like she couldn't stay over at their place, so pretty much the only reason I can come up with is It Had To Be The Salvatores :s

ETA: Not that I mind lol, considering what happened because of it ;) I just mean that so much on this show happens because it happens, rather than catering to a cohesive narrative, lol

Edited at 2012-12-04 06:22 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - upupa_epops on December 4th, 2012 06:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on December 4th, 2012 06:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - upupa_epops on December 4th, 2012 06:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - upupa_epops on December 5th, 2012 01:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - upupa_epops on December 5th, 2012 02:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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semi-titled: bonnie caroline elena hugspocochina on December 4th, 2012 06:07 pm (UTC)
Yeah. On the one hand, I am really glad there's a critical mass of fandom with a very low tolerance for policing of Elena's decisions, because she's a young woman in a position which exposes her to a lot of it. On the other hand, words like "judgment" actually have specific meanings past "failure to be completely, tactfully affirming of someone Choosing Her Choices."

Elena is acting 'compelled'; the same way that she remembers acting; with the look of adoration and agreeing with him; and as a vampire she can't be compelled, the nearest correlative is 'sired'....if one of those real and hypothetical friends I've been mentioning in this post suddenly said they liked the red dress because their boyfriend liked the red dress, even though moments before they'd said they liked the blue, then that would send alarm signals ringing.

Yes. YES. It is absolutely eerie. It's eerie even with the omniscient audience POV. Even if his intentions are pure (lol) and Elena is completely self-confident and comfortable and in control of her new life (no), his position as her confidante *still* gives him a lot of psychological sway over her, and it's her friends' job to be a perspective check on that. And Damon being Damon, and Elena having recently experienced being very vulnerable to mind games,* I really don't think concern is out of line. I'm not saying I agree with the axiomatic "not Damon, therefore Stefan" but that's what I got when I signed up for the show.

*Damon's mind games aren't worse than Stefan's, but they're not less dangerous, either.
Lexi: TVD - Elena Caroline Bonnie - Sleepovereilowyn on December 4th, 2012 06:14 pm (UTC)
And the reason it's easy to jump to this conclusion is because the in-text characters (Bonnie, Caroline, etc.) do not have the omniscient outsider perspective. All they know about Elena's relationship with Damon is what Elena chooses to reveal to them. And Elena doesn't choose to reveal much on the Damon-front and actively appears to hide Stefan's awful behavior and her real feelings about both of them, because she herself believes (believed) that her feelings aren't "right", that there's something wrong with her for wanting Damon.

This point was a friggen' revelation to me. You are so right; Bonnie and Caroline are limited by Elena's biased presentation of her feelings for the brothers.

I don't have much more to say. Good luck on your exams!
(Deleted comment)
Éléonorevergoldung on December 4th, 2012 06:29 pm (UTC)
The whole point of being a friend is that you are allowed to be absolutely, completely irrational about terrible life choices you think your friend is making.
WORD TO YOUR MOTHER. I mean seriously, idgi. That's just what you do. I doesn't mean that said friends is going to listen to you (hell if I did) but that's just what you do. Because you care and worry and ugh, I don't even understand how this is something that even needs to be established. Like, what is it with people and friendships-where-one-party-always-nods-in-agreement-because-that's-being-a-good-friend. The worst. Caroline is not Elena's minion. She's not here to blindly support her every decision ffs. That is not what friends do. Plus, it's not even as if Caroline was being purposefully anti-supportive, she is voicing her concern. Considering how many times the dickish bros took away Elena's agency and acted against her wishes, instead of sharing their opinion and leaving her to her own choices, I think fandom should really get some perspective regarding who Elena's bad friends are.

/rant

Everything you say about Caroline being just as trapped by the triangle as everybody on this show. There is no other option. Why, writers, why.

Also : go to bed and good luck for tomorrow!!!
(Deleted comment)
Florenciaflorencia7 on December 4th, 2012 08:50 pm (UTC)
To be honest, I'm not thrilled with what the show's doing with/to Caroline. I sense instrumental treatment. I feel like the show is more & more saying things through her rather than letting her be a character who says things (if that makes sense lol). & It's kind of alarming in the context of Nina's interview in which she said that more than one main character is going to die this season...

I keep seeing the dress argument in different contexts everywhere & I've been meaning to point out something for a while (& chose your post to do so, sorry ^^). Namely, that Elena never said she *liked* either dress better. She said "safe is good" about the blue one & then "red is pretty" about the other one, but she did not say which one she LIKED. She never contradicted herself during this scene (despite what Caroline was actively trying to imply). She uttered two true statements and then finished the scene by telling April to choose whichever dress she [April] liked.

Best of luck with your exam! ♥ ♥ ♥
Ishi-chanishi_chan on December 4th, 2012 09:10 pm (UTC)
I love all your arguments. I'm gonna keep it short like that because I'm getting to a point where I don't want to discuss any of this anymore because I'm getting defensive enough that I just want to ban everyone who raises a word against my sunshine queen (even when I occasionally partly agree with the points LOL mostly not though).
*emotions - I have them*
Amyshineyma on December 4th, 2012 09:24 pm (UTC)
Omg, yes, this. I literally facepalmed when I read the general opinions on Caro in this ep. So many people were talking about how she was a bad friend for not supporting Elena, and I'm just like what? Being a bad friend is letting one of your friends date someone that you know is an abusive jackhole without trying to stop them. Being a bad friend is sitting back and ignoring when your friend is suddenly drastically changing their opinion after a single word from said abusive jackhole.

And the whole "Caroline has no room to talk, she's there with Klaus thing" makes me even angrier because, hello? She agreed to the date in exchange for one of Klaus' hybrids, who, btw, she needed for Elena (or at least that was the impression that I got). Which had a really adverse effect on her relationship with Tyler, but no one seems terribly concerned about that. And yes, Caroline made a bad decision in doing that, but again--motivated by Elena. One could argue that she was being a bad girlfriend to Tyler, but a bad friend to Elena? Not so much.

Ugh.

Also, hi! I hope law school is going well! I'm a week and a half away from being done with the semester, so I am full of joy.
Alexia Lisa Drake: Vampire Diaries - Confusedalexia_drake on December 4th, 2012 11:45 pm (UTC)
The whole point of being a friend is that you are allowed to be absolutely, completely irrational about terrible life choices you think your friend is making.

Amen to that! I hope more D/E fans will soon realize that... All of the choices made by Caroline lately were to help Elena. She even got Tyler mad at her when she choosed to plan the death of an hybrid, just because it would free Elena from the Hunter.

Honestly, Caroline is being a good friend, and if the fans wants to bitch about something, it should be because she's not a really good girlfriend at the moment. lol
loveepicloveloveepiclove on December 8th, 2012 08:24 am (UTC)
I am a D/E fan and an Elena stan (if that is the term?). You know, my biggest issue with Caroline isn't that she doesn't like Damon (that's completely understandable). Nor is my problem the fact that she has voiced her opinion.

*MY* problem is that she's been involved in conversations with Elena's ex-boyfriend about Elena and I think that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I also think Caroline is blinded to all by her like of Stefan. Yes, I am rooting for Staroline.

Edited at 2012-12-08 08:27 am (UTC)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on December 8th, 2012 09:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - youcallitwinter on December 8th, 2012 09:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
most adorable zombie ever: TVD - Caroline - I can't be fixedscorpiod1 on December 5th, 2012 10:19 pm (UTC)
Agreed with pretty much everything, that I can't really add to this without being repetitive, but I shall try.

The whole point of being a friend is that you are allowed to be absolutely, completely irrational about terrible life choices you think your friend is making. One of my friends is dating this guy who I absolutely dislike and I think is terrible for her, because I've known him since before they got together and she's unhappy and constantly feels insecure about him (with good reason) AND that she's not good enough because he constantly criticizes her appearance, lifestyle, friends, etc., but she "loves him" and can't let him go. And I am absolutely VOCAL about how she needs to re-evaluate and re-think the whole business. I occasionally rationally point out why he's not good for her, but most of the time I'm so worried for her that I don't even pretend to be rational about it

EXACTLY. Sorry, didn't mean to quote the entire paragraph, but this summed up the interactions I've had with my friend for a while as well, who's dating this AWFUL GUY I constantly tell her but while she admits he's awful, she refuses to break up with him because she "loves him" /o\ Caroline telling Elena that Damon is awful and she shouldn't date him is fair, tbh, who cares if she's being bitchy about it (and yes, she doesn't have the viewpoint on Elena that we have, which is a really good point; she hasn't seen her reactions to Damon in private, doesn't actually know Elena's interiority in terms of Damon very well, so from where Caroline is standing, she has no reason to think there's more to it than what she sees or what she's told).

Obviously, trying to force Elena and Stefan back together no matter what Elena says is abhorrent and not the mark of a good friend, but like you said, there is really no logical reason for Caroline to advocate that EXCEPT for the show wanting everything to revolve around the triangle and for all decisions to essentially lead back to "Stefan or Damon?" rather than anything else /o\ This stupid triangle.
youcallitwinter: things we now knowyoucallitwinter on December 8th, 2012 09:34 am (UTC)
That situation with your friend sounds terrible, and pretty much like mine DD: Sometimes I feel as if I'm not very accepting of "love" as an explanation, and I should be? Like, my friend might actually love this guy, but I don't think that's...enough to go through what he usually puts her through? I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE I'M JUST COLD-HEARTED OR SOMETHING.

[SPOILERS FOR 4X08, IF YOU HAVEN'T YET SEEN!]

Which is why I get Caroline here; I think the problem is that most people are judging her by how she's saying things, than what she's saying? Because she's loud and blunt and comes across as aggressive and "judgmental" so no matter how right she is, people automatically take offence. She was right (as of now) about the sire-bond, and regardless of whether it affects actions or feelings (lol@this show trying to pretend that the ~feelings are real, so how does it matter that Elena has no agency), she was RIGHT in being worried and telling Elena. She's also right in being concerned about Shane/Bonnie, but because she says it in the "FINE RUIN YOUR LIFE PRACTICING SECRET MAGIC WITH THE CREEPY PROFESSOR WHO KNOWS ALL" instead of "hey, you're spending a lot of time together and he seems way too knowledgeable about everything, so maybe you should be careful" so it just sounds awful, even when it isn't, esp coupled with the fact that Elena and Bonnie don't have the same reaction towards each others' significant others and keep repeating that they "aren't judging", which makes Caroline comes across as completely unsympathetic. (She's unsympathetically portrayed, but she's also right? I MEAN, HOW IS THIS WORKING SHOW, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY ABOUT CAROLINE?)
(Deleted comment)
fluffyfrolicker: girly little caroline.fluffyfrolicker on December 6th, 2012 04:36 pm (UTC)
I don't want to talk to you about that. I agree with you on most of this. a) people are blaming Caroline for stuff she's not guilty of (trying to protect Elena from an abusive man, not knowing the details of what Damon and Stefan have done to/for Elena) and for the show making her their mouth to speak about the triangle and blahblah whatever.

WHAT I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IS KLAUS/CAROLINE.

HOW GORGEOUS WAS THAT?



let me spam you with gifs, my dear:









THE TEASING AND THE LAUGHING AND THE TALKING AND THE WALKING AND THE DRINKING AND THIS TOO SHOULD BE OUTSIDE WHERE THERE'S SUNNY ALL THE TIME IN PRETTY CLOTHES AND DID I MENTION THEY SMILE SO PRETTILY.
youcallitwinter: all you want is everythingyoucallitwinter on December 6th, 2012 06:33 pm (UTC)
DAMN, I HAVE SRS BZNS THINGS TO DO, BUT THIS MADE ME SMILE SO HARD, I COULDN'T NOT ANSWER.

THEIR FAAAAAACES, OMG. I'm sorry, but it's just...the best thing in the history of ever, because regardless of how much narrative sense it does or does not make, they're so cute. And they can be angsty. AND THEY CAN BE CUTE. AND ALL THE TEASING. AND TO THINK THAT HE HAD HER MISS MYSTIC APPLICATION IN HIS POCKET ALL THAT WHILE JUST SO HE COULD PULL IT AT ANY OPPORTUNE MOMENT AND TEASE HER ABOUT HER PLACEMENT OF 'WHEN'. I mean seriously, he is so stalker-creepy-obsessive, it's adorable #sentences I frame these days. And his expressions when she's talking, GUH, like he has these ridiculously dorky amused, smitten expressions and it is the best ever. I CANNOT RIGHT NOW.

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(no subject) - youcallitwinter on December 6th, 2012 06:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fluffyfrolicker on December 7th, 2012 08:42 am (UTC) (Expand)